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Martin Bucer, Reformed theologian in, I think, the 1600s.<br><br>Keely<br>http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/<br><br><br><br><br>> From: philosopher.joe@gmail.com<br>> To: v2020@ssl.fastmail.fm<br>> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 13:36:07 -0700<br>> CC: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] CORRECTION: Bucer's (was RE: More Banning?)<br>> <br>> Thanks for the clarification. Is it Bucer's? If so, who is Bucer?<br>> <br>> Joe Campbell<br>> <br>> On Jun 20, 2009, at 10:54 AM, "Saundra Lund" <v2020@ssl.fastmail.fm> <br>> wrote:<br>> <br>> > Hi Joe et al,<br>> ><br>> > It seems that perhaps the whole Bucer's thing is a bit less straight- <br>> > forward than I was informed back then (anyone else remember the <br>> > cigar appreciation session that was to be offered in 2004?).<br>> ><br>> > At the time, I was informed in no uncertain terms by someone within <br>> > the Kirk who I had no reason to disbelieve that women wouldn't be <br>> > welcomed at the class. That was it for me -- I've never been one to <br>> > socially impose where I'm apparently not wanted. It became a moot <br>> > point, though, because I believe the class was cancelled.<br>> ><br>> > HOWEVER, in response to my post last evening, I've heard from <br>> > someone who says that it's ***cigarette*** smoking that's not <br>> > allowed in the smoking room at Bucer's, ***not women***.<br>> ><br>> > So, perhaps there was some confusion back in 2004. Perhaps the <br>> > admonition I received was on the assumption that I'd be wanting to <br>> > smoke cigarettes at a cigar class?<br>> ><br>> > The person who contacted me in response to my post indicates having <br>> > actually smoked cigars with women in the smoke room, so that more <br>> > recent experience shouldn't be discounted.<br>> ><br>> > In any case, I don't want to leave an incorrect impression about <br>> > what's allowed and what's not in the smoking room at Bucer's because <br>> > I don't know! I implicitly trusted the words of wisdom I was given <br>> > back in 2004, but perhaps that was a mistake or maybe there was some <br>> > confusion back then.<br>> ><br>> > For those interested, I suggest contacting Bucer's directly for the <br>> > current policy rather than relying on information I was given over <br>> > four years ago that's now been contradicted.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > Saundra Lund<br>> > Moscow, ID<br>> ><br>> > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people <br>> > to do nothing.<br>> > ~ Edmund Burke<br>> ><br>> > ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2009 through <br>> > life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or <br>> > reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written <br>> > permission of the author.*****<br>> ><br>> > -----Original Message-----<br>> > From: Joe Campbell [mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com]<br>> > Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 8:09 AM<br>> > To: Saundra Lund<br>> > Cc: <bear@moscow.com>; vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] More Banning?<br>> ><br>> > Good points, Saundra. I didn't know that Bucers restricted women from<br>> > the smoking room. Does anyone know if they still have that policy? I<br>> > haven't been there since Michael Metzler left town.<br>> ><br>> > Joe Campbell<br>> ><br>> > On Jun 19, 2009, at 9:46 PM, "Saundra Lund" <v2020@ssl.fastmail.fm><br>> > wrote:<br>> ><br>> >> Hi Wayne,<br>> >><br>> >> You wrote:<br>> >> "What do you think about the way Bucers has their set up?"<br>> >><br>> >> I'm afraid I can't offer any comment because women aren't allowed<br>> >> inside the<br>> >> smoking room at Bucers, or at least we weren't when I tried to go a<br>> >> few<br>> >> years back. <shaking my head> It's such a ludicrous thing to type<br>> >> in the<br>> >> 21st century: no women allowed. Frankly, if the City Council wants<br>> >> to<br>> >> stick its nose in such matters as mandating smoking bans, I'd be far<br>> >> more<br>> >> interested in the cause had they addressed the gender discrimination<br>> >> by<br>> >> Bucers. But, that's a different issue.<br>> >><br>> >> I really have no dog in this fight -- while I’m a smoker, I rarel <br>> >> y v<br>> >> isit our<br>> >> local bars -- but I do have a couple of comments <g>.<br>> >><br>> >> First, I think it's a stunningly stupid move on the part of the City<br>> >> to even<br>> >> consider such a move during tough economic times. Have we not<br>> >> enough dark<br>> >> business space already?<br>> >><br>> >> Second, I really think the city should get an adequate handle on<br>> >> things<br>> >> currently on its plate before taking on new enforcement<br>> >> responsibilities.<br>> >> For instance, let's talk snow removal enforcement as just one<br>> >> example :-)<br>> >> Yes, we've had a couple of hard winters in a row, but even in mild<br>> >> winters,<br>> >> there are sidewalks that aren't shoveled for weeks on end, which<br>> >> presents a<br>> >> serious public safety hazard that is ignored by the city. Streets<br>> >> can't be<br>> >> adequately plowed because the city refuses to address the issue of<br>> >> cars left<br>> >> on the streets for weeks at a time. The resulting narrow roads are<br>> >> a safety<br>> >> hazard for all who travel on them, including emergency vehicles.<br>> >> So. Why<br>> >> on earth the city thinks it should take on a smoking ban in bars to<br>> >> the<br>> >> detriment of small businesses when it is woefully inadequate at<br>> >> enforcing<br>> >> rules already on the books is beyond me.<br>> >><br>> >> Third, for those who object to smoke in bars, for the love of God,<br>> >> COME UP<br>> >> WITH YOUR OWN ALTERNATIVES rather than trying to force existing<br>> >> business<br>> >> owners to cater to your needs. Isn't that exactly the kind of<br>> >> situation the<br>> >> free market should address. Certainly, there are smoke-free bars, so<br>> >> patronize them. They don't have pool tables? Then convince an<br>> >> investor --<br>> >> or band together yourselves -- to start up a business to suit your<br>> >> needs.<br>> >> Granted, you wouldn't have a liquor license immediately, but had you<br>> >> tried<br>> >> to solve your own problem rather than whine and force government to<br>> >> ram your<br>> >> desires to eliminate lawful behavior that will likely cause some <br>> >> local<br>> >> businesses to fail, you could have had exactly what you want by<br>> >> now. Lord<br>> >> knows there's plenty of dark retail spaces you could check into, and<br>> >> had you<br>> >> attempted to solve your problem rather than getting government to do<br>> >> it for<br>> >> you, you could have a nice setting or four that would suit your<br>> >> needs rather<br>> >> than advocating a ridiculous position that will hurt local business.<br>> >><br>> >> Fourth, with respect to Ted's case, I reject it. No one is forcing<br>> >> anyone<br>> >> to work in bars where there's second-hand smoke exposure. For those<br>> >> who<br>> >> choose to not expose themselves to second-hand smoke, then DON'T<br>> >> APPLY FOR<br>> >> JOBS WHERE SMOKING IS ALLOWED! Indeed, I find it incredibly<br>> >> hypocritical<br>> >> that some of those complaining about second-hand smoke exposure<br>> >> explicitly<br>> >> choose to work in bars rather than smoke-free restaurants or other<br>> >> smoke-free settings precisely because they can make better tips in<br>> >> bars, and<br>> >> a good portion of those tips come from smokers. I've yet to see<br>> >> anyone who<br>> >> objects to working in an environment where there's second-hand smoke<br>> >> exposure refuse to take tips from smokers. There's an ethical<br>> >> position for<br>> >> you :-)<br>> >><br>> >> Fifth, what's next? I think <tongue in cheek> we should outlaw the<br>> >> sales &<br>> >> operation of inefficient motor vehicles in Moscow because they are<br>> >> bad for<br>> >> the environment, which means they are bad for all of us. What about<br>> >> donorcycles -- we should all be aware of the significant impact on<br>> >> health<br>> >> care costs for all of us from those who choose to ride motorcycles.<br>> >> And, if<br>> >> we want to talk about health risks, then let's go after restaurants<br>> >> that<br>> >> serve red meat because you'd have to live in a cave to not know that<br>> >> the<br>> >> consumption of red meat is linked to lots of health problems<br>> >> including heart<br>> >> disease, which is THE leading cause of death in this country. And,<br>> >> what<br>> >> about those vegetarian employees working in restaurants with no<br>> >> vegetarian<br>> >> options?! Quite often, an indirect compensation for restaurant<br>> >> employees is<br>> >> free or reduced prices on meals while working, yet if the restaurant<br>> >> doesn't<br>> >> offer any vegetarian options . . . so perhaps we should get the City<br>> >> to pass<br>> >> a law mandating that ALL restaurants offer vegetarian option. Yeah <br>> >> --<br>> >> that's the ticket!<br>> >><br>> >> Sixth, I don't know Bill Parks, but I will say that I might be more<br>> >> sympathetic to his cause had he thrown his weight behind the<br>> >> significant<br>> >> concerns for Moscow's air quality problem from allowing bonfires in<br>> >> neighborhoods. *That* is an issue that affects entire<br>> >> neighborhoods . . .<br>> >> and the quality of life for people in their own homes and on their <br>> >> own<br>> >> property, yet I don't recall him addressing that. Instead, he'd<br>> >> rather have<br>> >> the government address social & the business concerns of others.<br>> >><br>> >> If what's been posted is accurate (I don't know if it is), I can't<br>> >> imagine<br>> >> Mr. Parks would be too happy if Moscow decided to outlaw the sale of<br>> >> products manufactured outside the country -- my guess would be he<br>> >> would<br>> >> vigorously object to local government messing with the legal<br>> >> activities of<br>> >> the free market in that respect. It's really too bad he fails to<br>> >> see the<br>> >> correlation . . .<br>> >><br>> >> Am I missing something? Isn't any business owner interested able to<br>> >> operate<br>> >> a bar or tavern where smoking is prohibited??? Again let Parks &<br>> >> those who<br>> >> share his concern open & operate their own smoke-free venue rather<br>> >> than<br>> >> trying to get the government to force others' businesses to do<br>> >> things His<br>> >> way. Isn't that what the free market is supposed to do?<br>> >><br>> >><br>> >> JMHO,<br>> >> Saundra Lund<br>> >> Moscow, ID<br>> >><br>> >> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people<br>> >> to do<br>> >> nothing.<br>> >> ~ Edmund Burke<br>> >><br>> >> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2009 through<br>> >> life plus<br>> >> 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce<br>> >> outside<br>> >> the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the<br>> >> author.*****<br>> >><br>> >><br>> >><br>> >> -----Original Message-----<br>> >> From: vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com<br>> >> ]<br>> >> On Behalf Of bear@moscow.com<br>> >> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 4:22 PM<br>> >> To: Ted Moffett<br>> >> Cc: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] More Banning?<br>> >><br>> >><br>> >> Ted,<br>> >><br>> >> What about something less draconian than a ban? What about a physical<br>> >> separation with air exchangers? What do you think about the way<br>> >> Bucers has<br>> >> their set up?<br>> >><br>> >> I can tell you that as a smoker, I am less inclined to compromise <br>> >> with<br>> >> total bans and advocates of total bans when their interests are up <br>> >> for<br>> >> consideration later. And I vote. There has to be a middle ground<br>> >> somewhere.<br>> >><br>> >> And you mention that keeping bars smoke free is a benefit to the<br>> >> workers<br>> >> in these businesses who need the jobs yet are exposed to second hand<br>> >> smoke. In the case here in Moscow, I don't even think the employees<br>> >> were<br>> >> even asked. Based on the tape I saw of the meeting before city<br>> >> council on<br>> >> the 18th of May, it was an individual that is a bar customer, and<br>> >> from his<br>> >> comments, I have to believe he was talking about Mingles. So,<br>> >> because he<br>> >> doesn't like the smoky atmosphere in Mingles, all of the bars in<br>> >> Moscow<br>> >> have to ban smoking?<br>> >><br>> >> I just think much more research needs to be done to see IF there is a<br>> >> problem before the Council passes a ban. The quick, knee jerk<br>> >> reaction,<br>> >> the simple solution to the problem IF there is one, is to pass a ban.<br>> >><br>> >><br>> >> =======================================================<br>> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> >> http://www.fsr.net<br>> >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> >> =======================================================<br>> ><br>> <br>> =======================================================<br>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> http://www.fsr.net <br>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> =======================================================<br><br /><hr />Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. <a href='http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009' target='_new'>See how.</a></body>
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