[Vision2020] An open letter to Moscow city council
Ted Moffett
starbliss at gmail.com
Thu Jul 16 14:37:44 PDT 2009
Actually, I have limited interest in the personal lives of Vision2020
participants. I abhor ad hominem arguments. I focus on discussion of
ideas, facts, logic. Professional education or training is relevant to
expertise, of course. But beyond that I don't care if someone is married or
not, woman or man, straight, gay or otherwise, is short, tall, slim or
overweight, is a teetotalling saint or a downs a fifth of Jack Daniels every
night, is a Olympic athlete or must use a wheelchair, and thus could not
serve in the military, as former president Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who
contacted a crippling disease at age 19, in 1921. Regardless of a person's
opinion of the controversial presidency of Roosevelt, he was a profoundly
transformative leader who overcame personal tragedy.
When a certain e-mail address can be used by multiple persons, and
pranksters play games on the list with false identities, it's helps to
creates a climate of sincerity and honesty (I'm dreaming to expect the world
to function in this manner, I know), and lessen the chances for confusion
regarding who wrote what when responding, for Vision2020 participants to
sign their full names to their posts. I recall once that Tom Hansen felt
compelled to clarify that the "Hansen" I was referencing in one of my posts
was NASA's James Hansen, not Tom Hansen.
A number of Vision2020 participants have been played for fools on this list
by pranksters with false identities. Of course, many on the Internet expect
participation on list serves to be based on fabricated personalities, so my
request for full legal names to be signed is probably viewed by many as old
fashioned; and who wants to bother with verifying names signed to Vision2020
posts match a person who can be identified? I don't.
However, a certain "Glenn Schwaller," posting to Vision2020 at
vpschwaller at gmail.com , has been asked out to lunch, and their identity
questioned, on Vision2020, but not by yours truly.
Anyway, given this list serve is not moderated, some anarchy is inevitable.
Ted Moffett
On 7/16/09, Wayne Price <bear at moscow.com> wrote:
>
> Sunil,
>
>
> Thanks, some folks just don't follow with a complete thread and just have
> to know everything about the folks on Vision 2020.
>
>
> So for those that are curious, I was born in Pittsburgh, did my under grad
> work at Columbus State University and my graduate work at U of I. I'm a
> graduate of both the Army and Marine Corps Command and Staff colleges, I
> wear boxers (when I wear any at all), and something only my tailor
> previously knew was that I "dress left". Bear was my dogs name, and I used
> it as a call sign during my recent tours of active duty and I was decorated
> by the US, Poland, Estonia, Bulgaria and New Zealand. Think there is
> anything else those with a need to know want to know? *S*
>
>
>
>
> Wayne
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Jul 15, 2009, at 9:29 PM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
>
> I know I've said this before and I'll say it again: Wayne Price is Bear,
> and I don't think he's made any attempt to hide his identity. It's not as if
> he's Captain Kirker or one of the deliberately anonymous people that show up
> here from time to time.
>
> That said, our system of government doesn't require that one serve in the
> military in order to exercise power. That's not to say that there isn't
> value in having that experience or having made that sacrifice (which I have
> not done) before requiring it of others. Not that Dick Cheney is paying
> attention...and Rumsfeld served, and that doesn't make his policies more
> palatable to me.
>
> Sunil
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 19:31:05 -0700
> From: starbliss at gmail.com
> To: suehovey at moscow.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An open letter to Moscow city council
>
> A "W" passes for a signature? There's a certain "W" this can refer to
> (Oliver Stone's film titled simply "W"), who should be in prison for war
> crimes. Not someone I'd want to be mistaken for...
>
> Vision2020 participants can easily sign their full names to their posts,
> unless they have something to hide or worry about (what might my boss or
> spouse think?). This can lessen confusion about who posted what, especially
> when someone is using an e-mail address that does not contain a person's
> full name, such as the bear at moscow.com address. Tom Hansen's e-mail
> address in my Google e-mail account includes his full name.
> bear at moscow.com does not. So even if Tom Hansen does not sign his post, I
> can read that it was sent by "Tom Hansen," in the e-mail address window.
> There is no name in the e-mail address window along with bear at moscow.com,
> at least in my Gmail e-mail account.
>
> "Bear" is not the legal name of the person Sue should have responded to...
> Or is it?
>
> To address the essence of Sue's concerns, I also wonder why the issue of
> who is or is not a veteran was raised in this discussion.
>
> Ted Moffett
>
>
> On 7/15/09, *Sue Hovey* <suehovey at moscow.com> wrote:
>
> Then I owe Tom an apology. And I do apologize, Tom. When I read the
> emails, I did not see the W below the message and simply inferred it was
> Tom's response. It was to you, Bear, I should have sent my reply. And so
> I do that now. You tie legitimacy to make a decision to "give up rights"
> as
> valid only if the policy maker has fought for those rights as a military
> veteran. The Roderick email certainly sends the same message. If a
> person is not supposed to draw that inference then I see no reason for
> either you or the Rodericks to bring into play the issue of veteran status.
>
> Sue
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <bear at moscow.com>
> To: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>
> Cc: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>; "Shelley Roderick"
> <cjsnightclub at cableone.net>; "v2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 11:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An open letter to Moscow city council
>
>
> >
> > Sue,
> >
> > Tom wasn't the one who asked about the veteran status of the current
> > council, I did, and Dan Carscallen answered me and said that 2 of the
> > current members are and that he's not one of the two. Wayne Krauss is
> one
> > of the two and lists it on his bio on the Moscow City Council site.
> >
> > And the reason I asked was to see if those so willing to give up rights
> > and make the rules ever had to defend them. I think that it amazing that
> > while I could get a cup of coffee and have a cigarette in Bosnia,
> > Bulgaria, Estonia, Poland, Romania, Albania and several other countries,
> I
> > soon may not be able to in my own home town.
> >
> > Wayne
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Are you saying that one has to be a veteran to make solid decisions? Or
> >> if
> >> one is not a veteran and makes a decision with which you do not agree,
> >> their
> >> decision is somehow less than valid because of their lack of veteran
> >> status?
> >>
> >> Sue H.
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
> >> To: "Shelley Roderick" <cjsnightclub at cableone.net>
> >> Cc: "v2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 3:15 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An open letter to Moscow city council
> >>
> >>
> >> Just a simple question that deserves a simple, yet civil, answer like
> >> "yes" or "no".
> >>
> >> Tom Hansen
> >> Moscow, Idaho
> >>
> >>> Tom - Why don't you call them and ask?
> >>>
> >>> For those of you that wish to contact Moscow city council via email,
> >>> here
> >>> is
> >>> how you can email all council members directly with only one email.
> >>>
> >>> 1) Go to: www.moscow.id.us/
> >>> 2) Click on the blue "council" tab.
> >>> 3) Click on "meet the council."
> >>> 4) Click on "Email all council members" at the bottom of the page.
> >>> 5) To be valid, include your full name and address for the record.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -------Original Message-------
> >>>
> >>> From: Tom Hansen
> >>> Date: 7/14/2009 3:02:03 PM
> >>> To: bear at moscow.com
> >>> Cc: v2020
> >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An open letter to Moscow city council
> >>>
> >>> Was this email really sent to the city council?
> >>>
> >>> The only address on it is Vision 2020.
> >>>
> >>> Tom Hansen
> >>> Moscoa, Idaho
> >>>
> >>>> Visionaries,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I agree with Phil's letter below, and am hoping the listees can give
> me
> >>>> some information in regards to it.
> >>>>
> >>>> How many members of the current administration are veterans?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> W
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> ----------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ATTENTION: YOU ARE ENTERING A SMOKE FILLED ENVIRONMENT AND WILL BE
> >>>>> SUBJECT
> >>>>> TO SECOND HAND SMOKE! ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK! THIS ESTABLISHMENT
> COULD
> >>>>> BE
> >>>>> HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Twenty generations have sacrificed loved ones to fight for the
> >>>>> freedoms
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> which we are able to enjoy today. It is very sad to me when a small
> >>>>> handful
> >>>>> of people representing our city can take the blood that was shed and
> >>>>> ignore
> >>>>> the sacrifices made to insure our right to, "life, liberty and
> >>>>> happiness."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have flown an American flag on my building since I bought it
> because
> >>>>> I
> >>>>> respect the blood, sweat and tears that allow me to do so. The city
> >>>>> council
> >>>>> should also respect and honor the same.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The city should agree with the Federal Government that when a person
> >>>>> turns
> >>>>> the age of 21, they have a mental capacity to make sound decisions
> and
> >>>>> will
> >>>>> be held responsible for those decisions in a court of law. This
> >>>>> includes
> >>>>> their health. The city should not impose their "personal guidance" to
> >>>>> those
> >>>>> who have just obtained the privilege of choice. They do not need to
> >>>>> baby
> >>>>> sit
> >>>>> However, they should be babysitting where smoking is allowed. Where
> >>>>> children walk our sidewalks and play in city parks.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In regards to "employee health," No one is forced to work in a smoked
> >>>>> filled
> >>>>> environment. They came looking for a job. If they find it is not for
> >>>>> them,
> >>>>> they have the right of freedom to work elsewhere. The customer has a
> >>>>> right
> >>>>> to walk in my doors, or not. They even have the right to leave once
> >>>>> inside.
> >>>>> Liberty of choice and free will granted to us from the blood of our
> >>>>> forefathers.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The first thing I see when I walk into city hall is a United States
> >>>>> flag.
> >>>>> The last thing I see when I leave city hall is a United States flag.
> >>>>> Let's
> >>>>> not loose what that flag stands for.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If the city agrees to this smoking ban I would like to suggest they
> >>>>> also
> >>>>> consider an ordinance stopping the farmers from farming as it blows
> >>>>> dust
> >>>>> that I breathe that causes my asthma to flare up. Talk about a health
> >>>>> issue!
> >>>>> How about bringing it up to vote when approximately 60% of Moscow's
> >>>>> citizens
> >>>>> are back in town? Let the citizens of Moscow decide. Give them the
> >>>>> opportunity to voice an opinion on their own freedoms and liberties.
> >>>>> Let
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> majority decide. Not a handful.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1/3 of the bars in Moscow are non-smoking by choice. The city should
> >>>>> not
> >>>>> interfere with the liberties of other bars and private clubs.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You ask why other bar owners are not speaking up? How about listening
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> ones that are. I believe in fighting for the rights and liberties of
> >>>>> my
> >>>>> 24
> >>>>> employees and thousands of customers that choose to walk through my
> >>>>> doors.
> >>>>> They count on me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bill Parks, who introduced this ordinance states, "it is a work
> place,
> >>>>> health issue. The only place we allow really dangerous things is in
> >>>>> second
> >>>>> hand smoke." Well, how about coal mines? Gas refineries? Plastic
> >>>>> manufacturers? Paint fumes? As I understand, his company manufactures
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> builds thing in Mexico. He pays his workers in pesos. Why isn't
> Moscow
> >>>>> good
> >>>>> enough for him to employ and manufacture his wares here? Could it be
> >>>>> government enforced workman's comp? Minimum wage? Social Security
> >>>>> taxes?
> >>>>> Not
> >>>>> to forget the OSHA laws which are not enforced in Mexico? Why Bill
> >>>>> Parks
> >>>>> do
> >>>>> you choose to have your companies in Mexico? I can tell you why I
> >>>>> choose
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> have mine in Moscow, Idaho.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The chains of slavery on business were cut in 1776. Let's not put
> them
> >>>>> back
> >>>>> on.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Let freedom ring.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Phil Roderick
> >>>>>
> >>>>> cjs at turbonet.com
> =======================================================
> >>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>>> http://www.fsr.net
> >>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>>>> =======================================================
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =======================================================
> >>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>> http://www.fsr.net
> >>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>>> =======================================================
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to
> >>> change
> >>> and the Realist adjusts his sails."
> >>>
> >>> - Unknown
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> =======================================================
> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>> http://www.fsr.net
> >>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>> =======================================================
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to
> >> change
> >> and the Realist adjusts his sails."
> >>
> >> - Unknown
> >>
> >>
> >> =======================================================
> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> =======================================================
> >>
> >> =======================================================
> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> =======================================================
> >>
> >
> >
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> =======================================================
>
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
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