[Vision2020] Humane interrogations work

[Garrett Clevenger]

Roger,

I believe with a little bit of effort, we're all capable of empathy. I think that's important to understand motives of people we consider our enemy.

So if you wouldn't mind, could you please tell me how you would feel if you lived in a country where your child died as a result of a US bomb dropped on their head? Would you be able to forgive, or would you be mad as hell?

Thank you,

Garrett



--- On Tue, 2/24/09, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:

> From: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>, garrettmc at verizon.net, "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 1:59 PM
> Thanks Gary
> This was so far off the deep end, I  was not going to even
> reply to it.
> Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: "g. crabtree" jampot at roadrunner.com
> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:09:35 -0800
> To: garrettmc at verizon.net,  "vision 2020"
> vision2020 at moscow.com, "Sunil Ramalingam"
> sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
> 
> > "Is it so hard for you to admit that there is a
> possibility that US policy
> > has indeed created the very terrorists we are trying
> to destroy? And I'm
> > not talking about because they hate our freedom or
> values, but because we
> > have killed innocents as well..."
> > 
> > If I believed for one minute that it were true I
> wouldn't. I believe that 
> > the enemy
> > we are at war with does in fact hate our freedoms and
> values and resents its 
> > own
> > lack stature in the world, particularly in light of
> what it sees as its 
> > former glory.
> > 
> > If, as you claim, the terrorism we face today is
> brought about by the 
> > innocents
> > who have died as a by product of US actions why do we
> see no North American 
> > indig
> > terrorism? After WW I & II did we endure a rash of
> Teutonic terrorism? 
> > Radical Shinto
> > terrorism? Vietnamese terrorism? Do you contend that
> no innocents were 
> > inadvertently
> > killed during these conflicts? What is the difference
> between then and now, 
> > them and
> > our current foes? Why did our actions then not give
> rise to the same 
> > terrorism we see now?
> > 
> > If this problem truly is all about "American
> empire" why do bombs go off in 
> > night clubs
> > in Bali and subways in Spain? Why riots in France,
> murders in the 
> > Netherlands. European
> > tourists murdered and maimed in Cairo. China is
> experiencing problems with a 
> > certain
> > belligerent religious minority. Even the UK, a country
> that bends over 
> > backward to appease its
> > malcontents is experiencing extreme unrest.
> > 
> > The inescapable conclusion a rational person will come
> to is that militant 
> > Islam and
> > wahabaism are the common denominator and I firmly
> believe that you can offer 
> > up all
> > the maudlin mea culpas and a truck load of tearful
> apologies and it won't 
> > reduce the
> > terrorism one little bit. Even if we were to attempt
> to placate them by 
> > joining in with
> > their unconscionable pogrom to eradicate Jews, their
> goodwill (the aftermath 
> > in Bosnia being a shining
> > example of undying Islamic gratitude) would only last
> until their goal had 
> > been met and we would
> > be back to the status quo of submit, convert, or die.
> > 
> > I, Personally, refuse to apologize and I'm not to
> wild about submission,
> > conversion is out of the question, and when it comes
> to death I figure 
> > better
> > them then me. Call me crazy.
> > 
> > As-sallamu aleykum!
> > g
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Garrett Clevenger"
> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> > To: "vision 2020"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Sunil Ramalingam" 
> > <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>; "g.
> crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:18 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
> > 
> > 
> > > You are correct, g, there are exceptions to any
> rule. If someone were 
> > > pointing a gun at someone I love, I wouldn't
> hesitate to do what is 
> > > necessary to insure their survival. Yes, there
> are bad people who probably 
> > > should be culled out.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, national defense does require the
> use of the same force in 
> > > certain circumstances. As I didn't want to
> subject this list to more 
> > > cataloging than I've already inputed, I
> suppose my lack of specifics may 
> > > lead some to believe I believe otherwise. In your
> wisdom, you point out 
> > > that my general argument is not universal.
> > >
> > > That's different than preemptively using such
> force half way around the 
> > > world based on false pretenses, particularly when
> that argument can be 
> > > used by the other side to strike first as well.
> > >
> > > The fact is, not only do we share similar
> justification with the other 
> > > side, the US is the one who has spent billions
> more $$$, killed a lot more 
> > > people and caused way more destruction than we
> have received, while 
> > > threatening our children's future with not
> only the financial debt they'll 
> > > incur, but the added seeds of resentment that
> surely will keep the spiral 
> > > rolling indefinitely.
> > >
> > > I hate calling that a war, because wars
> eventually end.
> > >
> > > Is it so hard for you to admit that there is a
> possibility that US policy 
> > > has indeed created the very terrorists we are
> trying to destroy? And I'm 
> > > not talking about because they hate our freedom
> or values, but because we 
> > > have killed innocents as well...
> > >
> > > gclev
> > >
> > > --- On Mon, 2/23/09, g. crabtree
> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> From: g. crabtree
> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane
> interrogations work
> > >> To: garrettmc at verizon.net, "vision
> 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Sunil 
> > >> Ramalingam"
> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > >> Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 7:27 AM
> > >> The quote:
> > >>
> > >> " I imagine most of these acts are
> > >>  consequences of the American Empire willing
> to commit the
> > >>  same atrocities."
> > >>
> > >> I suppose the question is, the same as who,
> The Girl
> > >> Scouts? The Red Cross? It seems clear to me
> that since the
> > >> topic was terrorism and that among the
> terrorists in
> > >> question we find the taliban and al-qaeda at
> the top of the
> > >> list, there was no need for wild speculation
> on my part.
> > >>
> > >> Moving on, "Anyone willing to kill for
> their agenda is
> > >> sick and should be treated. Perhaps a
> lobotomy would be the
> > >> cure, rather than killing them
> outright?"
> > >>
> > >> I guess I have to assume that, considering
> your moral
> > >> equivalence position that you include US and
> coalition
> > >> troops in this group along with law
> enforcement officials
> > >> and anyone else who might be willing to use
> ultimate
> > >> measures to protect themselves or there loved
> ones?
> > >>
> > >> There's going to be a dreadful dearth of
> stimulating
> > >> conversation in your little corner of Hell.
> > >>
> > >> g
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> > >> From: "Garrett Clevenger"
> > >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> > >> To: "vision 2020"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>;
> > >> "Sunil Ramalingam"
> > >> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > >> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 10:25 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane
> interrogations work
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Thanks, Sunil. I suppose we all read
> between the lines
> > >> in our interpretations of the limitation of
> email
> > >> conversation. Once we get hot-headed, that
> interpretation
> > >> probably is distorted even more so.
> > >> >
> > >> > Obviously, moral equivalences are not so
> much based on
> > >> particular nationalities, but on the
> individuals who act
> > >> immoral.  Some in the US probably are the
> moral equivalent
> > >> of some members of the taliban or al qaeda.
> > >> >
> > >> > Anyone willing to kill for their agenda
> is sick and
> > >> should be treated. Perhaps a lobotomy would
> be the cure,
> > >> rather than killing them outright?
> > >> >
> > >> > gclev
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, Sunil Ramalingam
> > >> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> From: Sunil Ramalingam
> > >> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > >> >> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Humane
> interrogations
> > >> work
> > >> >> To: jampot at roadrunner.com,
> garrettmc at verizon.net,
> > >> "vision 2020"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >> >> Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009,
> 9:35 PM
> > >> >> I don't think Garrett made the
> claim you
> > >> attribute to
> > >> >> him, and you're speculating
> wildly in claiming
> > >> he
> > >> >> believes what you write below.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Do you really think that dropping
> bombs on cities
> > >> has some
> > >> >> moral superiority over
> 'terrorism?'  Are
> > >> those
> > >> >> victims any less dead?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Sunil
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > From: jampot at roadrunner.com
> > >> >> > To: garrettmc at verizon.net;
> > >> vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> >> > Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:29:11
> -0800
> > >> >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
> Humane
> > >> interrogations work
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Take from my response anything
> you like.
> > >> It's
> > >> >> definitely not that I have no
> > >> >> > argument with your diatribe,
> it's just
> > >> that I see
> > >> >> little point in trying to
> > >> >> > have a discussion with anyone
> who actually
> > >> believes
> > >> >> that the USA is the
> > >> >> > moral equivalent of al-qaeda or
> the taliban.
> > >> If
> > >> >> that's the world you live in
> > >> >> > I feel sorry for you but I
> really don't
> > >> believe
> > >> >> there is any common ground
> > >> >> > from which to move this dialog
> forward. As
> > >> for your
> > >> >> infernal living
> > >> >> > arrangements, again my
> sympathies but I'm
> > >> afraid I
> > >> >> can accept no
> > >> >> > responsibility for where you
> choose to
> > >> reside.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > g
> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > >> >> > From: "Garrett
> Clevenger"
> > >> >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> > >> >> > To:
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "g.
> > >> >> crabtree"
> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > >> >> > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009
> 5:49 PM
> > >> >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
> Humane
> > >> interrogations work
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > > I'll take it from your
> snide
> > >> response, g,
> > >> >> that you have no argument
> > >> >> > > against my diatribe.
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > You did prove
> Donovan's point,
> > >> though, that
> > >> >> some poeple just can't be
> > >> >> > > reasoned with, and my
> point, due to
> > >> this, that
> > >> >> perhaps we are condemned to
> > >> >> > > live in Hell.
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > Congratulation's on
> helping keep the
> > >> ball
> > >> >> rolling...
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > gclev
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, g.
> crabtree
> > >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >> From: g. crabtree
> > >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > >> >> > >> Subject: Re:
> [Vision2020] Humane
> > >> >> interrogations work
> > >> >> > >> To:
> garrettmc at verizon.net,
> > >> >> vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> >> > >> Date: Sunday, February
> 22, 2009,
> > >> 12:25 PM
> > >> >> > >> "I imagine most
> of these acts
> > >> are
> > >> >> consequences of the
> > >> >> > >> American Empire
> willing to commit
> > >> the same
> > >> >> atrocities."
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >> > >> I'm thinking not
> so much a book
> > >> as a tool
> > >> >> catalog.
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >> > >> As the Ham-ster would
> say "nuff
> > >> >> said."
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >> > >> g
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >> > >> ----- Original Message
> ----- From:
> > >> >> "Garrett
> > >> >> > >> Clevenger"
> > >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> > >> >> > >> To:
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>;
> > >> "g.
> > >> >> crabtree"
> > >> >> > >>
> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > >> >> > >> Sent: Saturday,
> February 21, 2009
> > >> 7:53 PM
> > >> >> > >> Subject: Re:
> [Vision2020] Humane
> > >> >> interrogations work
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >> > >> > I don't
> condone the violent
> > >> acts you
> > >> >> mention,
> > >> >> > >> either, whether
> committed by suicide
> > >> bombers,
> > >> >> alleged
> > >> >> > >> hijackers, or the
> powers that be
> > >> that distort
> > >> >> truth for
> > >> >> > >> their own agenda. I
> imagine most of
> > >> these
> > >> >> acts are
> > >> >> > >> consequences of the
> American Empire
> > >> willing
> > >> >> to commit the
> > >> >> > >> same atrocities.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > There may be some
> imagined
> > >> slights, but
> > >> >> there are also
> > >> >> > >> some very real
> slights. History is
> > >> replete
> > >> >> with examples of
> > >> >> > >> US policy directly
> responsible for
> > >> killing
> > >> >> innocents. If
> > >> >> > >> you're willing to
> retaliate for
> > >> feeling
> > >> >> slighted, why
> > >> >> > >> wouldn't your
> supposed enemies,
> > >> >> who've probably
> > >> >> > >> witnessed more
> bloodshed than
> > >> hopefully
> > >> >> we'll ever see,
> > >> >> > >> want vengeance, too?
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > You're
> probably aware of
> > >> the US
> > >> >> financial and
> > >> >> > >> military support of
> Saddam Hussein
> > >> during the
> > >> >> 80's. The
> > >> >> > >> US backed Iraq in
> their war against
> > >> Iran,
> > >> >> where a million or
> > >> >> > >> so people were killed.
> The US also
> > >> knew
> > >> >> Saddam was gassing
> > >> >> > >> the Kurds, where,
> guess what,
> > >> innocent women,
> > >> >> children and
> > >> >> > >> men died of chemical
> weapons. But
> > >> apparently,
> > >> >> the US
> > >> >> > >> condoned Saddam's
> actions.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > The Iranians
> suffered under the
> > >> Shaw, a
> > >> >> dictator
> > >> >> > >> propped up by the US.
> The Saudis,
> > >> too, suffer
> > >> >> under the
> > >> >> > >> Sauds, who the US is
> willing to
> > >> support to
> > >> >> insure access to
> > >> >> > >> oil, and military
> bases.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > As for Osama, the
> CIA trained
> > >> and paid
> > >> >> him and his
> > >> >> > >> muhjadeen during the
> Afghan war
> > >> against the
> > >> >> Soviets. So the
> > >> >> > >> US is implicated in
> the deaths they
> > >> caused
> > >> >> during that war,
> > >> >> > >> as well.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > Those are only a
> few of the
> > >> reasons some
> > >> >> people hate
> > >> >> > >> the US and are trying
> to bring it
> > >> down, to
> > >> >> hold its citizens
> > >> >> > >> accountable, to make
> us pay with
> > >> similar
> > >> >> heartache. It was
> > >> >> > >> only a matter of time
> before all
> > >> that pent up
> > >> >> anger would
> > >> >> > >> make its way to the
> US,
> > >> unfortunately.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > It seems unfair
> of you to be
> > >> upset over
> > >> >> the deaths of
> > >> >> > >> Americans, but not of
> other people
> > >> who died
> > >> >> as a result of
> > >> >> > >> US policy. Personally,
> I think all
> > >> of these
> > >> >> deaths are a
> > >> >> > >> travesty.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > Nothing exist
> inside a vacuum.
> > >> Every
> > >> >> bomb has a boom.
> > >> >> > >> Every person who is
> tortured brings
> > >> us closer
> > >> >> to our doom.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > All our values
> will not save
> > >> us. All our
> > >> >> wealth is
> > >> >> > >> valueless when we
> become like our
> > >> enemy and
> > >> >> sell our souls
> > >> >> > >> to oppress.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > We live in a
> freer society than
> > >> where
> > >> >> the alleged
> > >> >> > >> terrorist dwell. We
> have access to
> > >> more info,
> > >> >> and the
> > >> >> > >> ability to dissent.
> These other folk
> > >> have
> > >> >> seen, and are
> > >> >> > >> taught, how US policy
> is
> > >> hypocritical and
> > >> >> leads to their
> > >> >> > >> becoming second class
> citizens. If I
> > >> lived
> > >> >> there and lost a
> > >> >> > >> loved one due to the
> US, I'd be
> > >> pretty
> > >> >> pissed, too. I
> > >> >> > >> can empathize with
> their frustration
> > >> at what
> > >> >> seems to be
> > >> >> > >> policy designed to
> enrich some in
> > >> the US at
> > >> >> the expense of
> > >> >> > >> their well-being.
> I'm actually
> > >> surprised
> > >> >> their isn't
> > >> >> > >> more retaliation, but
> maybe
> > >> that's due to
> > >> >> there being
> > >> >> > >> more saner heads than
> we know, or
> > >> maybe due
> > >> >> to increased
> > >> >> > >> security.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > These
> people's view of
> > >> history,
> > >> >> whether accurate
> > >> >> > >> or not, becomes part
> of their
> > >> psyche. I can
> > >> >> imagine how that
> > >> >> > >> shapes their behavior
> and view of
> > >> the US.
> > >> >> Since they live in
> > >> >> > >> a more repressive
> regime, it's a
> > >> lot
> > >> >> harder for them to
> > >> >> > >> break the cycle of
> hatred they have
> > >> towards
> > >> >> us. Since they
> > >> >> > >> aren't as
> comfortable, it's
> > >> probably
> > >> >> a lot harder
> > >> >> > >> for them to keep their
> cool. Those
> > >> that are
> > >> >> more tolerant
> > >> >> > >> are probably
> ostracized. The ones
> > >> who
> > >> >> retaliate against us
> > >> >> > >> are revered. Thus,
> natural selection
> > >> leads to
> > >> >> violence
> > >> >> > >> against the US, and
> themselves.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > I imagine there
> are people over
> > >> there
> > >> >> like you who
> > >> >> > >> rally others to act
> violent. They
> > >> probably
> > >> >> say the same
> > >> >> > >> thing you do, and so
> people are
> > >> enlisted into
> > >> >> what means
> > >> >> > >> they have of
> retaliation. If China
> > >> were
> > >> >> taking over our
> > >> >> > >> country with military
> might instead
> > >> of
> > >> >> financially, perhaps
> > >> >> > >> we'd have more
> freedom fighters
> > >> willing
> > >> >> to kill and die
> > >> >> > >> to protect our
> homeland, and
> > >> we'd have a
> > >> >> better
> > >> >> > >> understanding of why
> some are
> > >> willing to make
> > >> >> the ultimate
> > >> >> > >> sacrifice in what they
> deem to be
> > >> defense of
> > >> >> their country.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > It's only
> natural to want
> > >> to protect
> > >> >> what you
> > >> >> > >> love. It's natural
> to want to
> > >> retaliate.
> > >> >> > >> > It makes perfect
> sense to me
> > >> that
> > >> >> violence begets
> > >> >> > >> violence. We send our
> soldiers
> > >> there, who
> > >> >> bomb and kill
> > >> >> > >> innocent people, which
> then leads to
> > >> pissed
> > >> >> off people who
> > >> >> > >> want to bomb us back.
> But that
> > >> doesn't it
> > >> >> make it right,
> > >> >> > >> or in our best
> interest. It just
> > >> makes it
> > >> >> look like
> > >> >> > >> we're barbarians.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > The war of terror
> the US is
> > >> engaged in
> > >> >> only seems to
> > >> >> > >> promote further
> violence, which
> > >> means the war
> > >> >> of terror
> > >> >> > >> needs more money and
> troops to fight
> > >> that
> > >> >> violence. It's
> > >> >> > >> absurd to think we can
> keep killing,
> > >> >> torturing and bombing
> > >> >> > >> our way out of this
> mess, especially
> > >> >> considering there is
> > >> >> > >> historical
> justification for people
> > >> to be mad
> > >> >> at us for us
> > >> >> > >> letting our government
> commit
> > >> violence.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > By letting them
> use our tax
> > >> dollars,
> > >> >> like it or not,
> > >> >> > >> we are guilty of
> killing people, and
> > >> thus,
> > >> >> there really are
> > >> >> > >> no innocent people,
> unless you are
> > >> protesting
> > >> >> and not paying
> > >> >> > >> taxes. Since we are
> freer, we're
> > >> actually
> > >> >> more guilty
> > >> >> > >> than those in more
> repressive
> > >> regimes who
> > >> >> have no means of
> > >> >> > >> deposing of their
> government. We do
> > >> not have
> > >> >> to be pawns in
> > >> >> > >> the US empire. We do
> not have to let
> > >> them
> > >> >> engage our
> > >> >> > >> military in foreign
> excursions that
> > >> quite
> > >> >> obviously are
> > >> >> > >> mostly intended to
> secure oil
> > >> reserves.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > We've spent
> hundreds of
> > >> billions of
> > >> >> dollars, lost
> > >> >> > >> more Americans than
> who died during
> > >> the 911
> > >> >> strikes, and
> > >> >> > >> killed many, many tens
> of thousands
> > >> of
> > >> >> innocent people in
> > >> >> > >> our desire for
> vengeance. For what?
> > >> More
> > >> >> hatred towards us,
> > >> >> > >> more loss of lives,
> and more
> > >> indebtedness to
> > >> >> fund this
> > >> >> > >> folly.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > I'm able to
> condemn all
> > >> these acts
> > >> >> of violence as
> > >> >> > >> the same evil they
> are: willing to
> > >> kill for
> > >> >> > >> self-righteousness.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > Admittedly, at
> this point,
> > >> there is no
> > >> >> easy solution.
> > >> >> > >> Considering we have a
> hard time
> > >> treating our
> > >> >> own with
> > >> >> > >> respect amongst our
> different
> > >> viewpoints,
> > >> >> perhaps we're
> > >> >> > >> condemned to live in
> this hell. We
> > >> all are
> > >> >> animals
> > >> >> > >> essentially controlled
> by our
> > >> emotions. Our
> > >> >> higher being is
> > >> >> > >> smothered by those who
> want to lash
> > >> out. We
> > >> >> all have these
> > >> >> > >> feelings, but we all
> can be redeemed
> > >> if
> > >> >> we're courageous
> > >> >> > >> enough to stand up to
> the powers
> > >> that be and
> > >> >> say,
> > >> >> > >> "Enough!"
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > For starters
> though, we need to
> > >> reign in
> > >> >> the American
> > >> >> > >> empire. We need to
> hold Israel
> > >> accountable
> > >> >> for it's
> > >> >> > >> double standards
> against the
> > >> Palestinians. We
> > >> >> need to stop
> > >> >> > >> supporting repressive
> regimes. We
> > >> need to
> > >> >> have compassionate
> > >> >> > >> policy that treats all
> Earthlings
> > >> with
> > >> >> respect. We need to
> > >> >> > >> take the higher ground
> and say,
> > >> >> "Sorry."
> > >> >> > >> Reconciliation may
> sound cheesy, but
> > >> it goes
> > >> >> a long way in
> > >> >> > >> leading to forgiveness
> for our
> > >> trespasses.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > The other
> alternative is to
> > >> keep digging
> > >> >> ourselves in
> > >> >> > >> this hole of hatred,
> which will lead
> > >> to
> > >> >> further acts that
> > >> >> > >> we'll feel
> we'll need to
> > >> retaliate
> > >> >> against, ad
> > >> >> > >> nauseam.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > Corrosive
> cynicism warmongers
> > >> display
> > >> >> certainly
> > >> >> > >> isn't the answer.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > Sorry for the
> book. This
> > >> definitely
> > >> >> became longer than
> > >> >> > >> intended...
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > Peace,
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > gclev
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> > --- On Sat,
> 2/21/09, g.
> > >> crabtree
> > >> >> > >>
> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> From: g.
> crabtree
> > >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > >> >> > >> >> Subject: Re:
> [Vision2020]
> > >> Humane
> > >> >> interrogations
> > >> >> > >> work
> > >> >> > >> >> To:
> garrettmc at verizon.net,
> > >> >> vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> >> > >> >> Date:
> Saturday, February
> > >> 21, 2009,
> > >> >> 3:21 PM
> > >> >> > >> >>
> "Let's assume for
> > >> a moment
> > >> >> that
> > >> >> > >> terrorists are not
> > >> >> > >> >> cockroaches,
> but humans who
> > >> like you
> > >> >> and I have
> > >> >> > >> the same
> > >> >> > >> >> emotions of
> bitterness,
> > >> anger and
> > >> >> desire to
> > >> >> > >> retaliate."
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> Retaliate for
> what? Sorry,
> > >> but I
> > >> >> can't even
> > >> >> > >> begin to
> > >> >> > >> >> imagine
> flying jumbo jets
> > >> into
> > >> >> buildings full of
> > >> >> > >> innocents
> > >> >> > >> >> or strapping
> on a bomb and
> > >> going out
> > >> >> and
> > >> >> > >> deliberately
> > >> >> > >> >> killing women
> and children
> > >> most of
> > >> >> whom are my own
> > >> >> > >> >> countrymen.
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> "Why do
> you think
> > >> these people
> > >> >> would commit
> > >> >> > >> such
> > >> >> > >> >> dastardly
> deeds, willing to
> > >> kill
> > >> >> other people?
> > >> >> > >> What
> > >> >> > >> >> specifics
> would drive these
> > >> people
> > >> >> to act
> > >> >> > >> so?"
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> According to
> Osama
> > >> Bin-Laden, the
> > >> >> justification to
> > >> >> > >> murder
> > >> >> > >> >> nearly 3000
> innocent men,
> > >> women, and
> > >> >> children was
> > >> >> > >> that after
> > >> >> > >> >> the first
> gulf war we were
> > >> not quick
> > >> >> enough in
> > >> >> > >> removing all
> > >> >> > >> >> of our troops
> from Saudi
> > >> Arabia to
> > >> >> suit his
> > >> >> > >> tastes. Never
> > >> >> > >> >> mind that the
> Saudi
> > >> government had
> > >> >> made no request
> > >> >> > >> for us to
> > >> >> > >> >> speed up the
> rate at which
> > >> our
> > >> >> forces were to pull
> > >> >> > >> out. To
> > >> >> > >> >> the contrary,
> they were
> > >> rather
> > >> >> pleased to have us
> > >> >> > >> in country
> > >> >> > >> >> in the short
> term.
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> Also, he was
> miffed with
> > >> our support
> > >> >> for Israel,
> > >> >> > >> totally
> > >> >> > >> >> ignoring the
> fact that
> > >> along with
> > >> >> the aid we send
> > >> >> > >> to that
> > >> >> > >> >> country, we
> also spend
> > >> billions in
> > >> >> aid to Syria,
> > >> >> > >> Jordan,
> > >> >> > >> >> Egypt,
> Lebanon,
> > >> Afghanistan, and
> > >> >> Saudi Arabia.
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> As you can
> see, I am rather
> > >> at a
> > >> >> loss. Please feel
> > >> >> > >> free to
> > >> >> > >> >> jump in and
> enlighten me as
> > >> to why
> > >> >> we were so
> > >> >> > >> richly
> > >> >> > >> >> deserving of
> radical muslim
> > >> hatred
> > >> >> and how the
> > >> >> > >> losses we
> > >> >> > >> >> sustained on
> 9/11 could be
> > >> justified
> > >> >> as simple pay
> > >> >> > >> back for
> > >> >> > >> >> our misdeeds.
> What is it
> > >> that you
> > >> >> imagine we might
> > >> >> > >> do that
> > >> >> > >> >> would sooth
> these peoples
> > >> imagined
> > >> >> slights?
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> g
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> -----
> Original Message
> > >> ----- From:
> > >> >> "Garrett
> > >> >> > >> Clevenger"
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> > >> >> > >> >> To:
> > >> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >> >> > >> >> Sent:
> Saturday, February
> > >> 21, 2009
> > >> >> 11:11 AM
> > >> >> > >> >> Subject:
> [Vision2020]
> > >> Humane
> > >> >> interrogations work
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> > g,
> > >> >> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >
> Let's assume for a
> > >> moment
> > >> >> that terrorists
> > >> >> > >> are not
> > >> >> > >> >> cockroaches,
> but humans who
> > >> like you
> > >> >> and I have
> > >> >> > >> the same
> > >> >> > >> >> emotions of
> bitterness,
> > >> anger and
> > >> >> desire to
> > >> >> > >> retaliate.
> > >> >> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> > Why do
> you think these
> > >> people
> > >> >> would commit
> > >> >> > >> such
> > >> >> > >> >> dastardly
> deeds, willing to
> > >> kill
> > >> >> other people?
> > >> >> > >> What
> > >> >> > >> >> specifics
> would drive these
> > >> people
> > >> >> to act so?
> > >> >> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> > I'm
> asking to see
> > >> if we
> > >> >> could reason as
> > >> >> > >> to why we
> > >> >> > >> >> live in a
> world seemingly
> > >> filled
> > >> >> with violence due
> > >> >> > >> to humans
> > >> >> > >> >> striking
> fellow humans, so
> > >> as to
> > >> >> possibly
> > >> >> > >> extricate
> > >> >> > >> >> ourselves
> from this deadly
> > >> spiral...
> > >> >> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> > gclev
> > >> >> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >>
> > >>
> =======================================================
> > >> >> > >> >> > List
> services made
> > >> available by
> > >> >> First Step
> > >> >> > >> Internet,
> > >> >> > >> >> > serving
> the
> > >> communities of the
> > >> >> Palouse since
> > >> >> > >> 1994.
> > >> >> > >> >> >
> > >> >> http://www.fsr.net
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> >
> > >> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> >> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >>
> > >>
> =======================================================
> > >> >> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >>
> =======================================================
> > >> >> >  List services made available
> by First Step
> > >> Internet,
> > >> >> >  serving the communities of the
> Palouse since
> > >> 1994.
> > >> >> >               
> http://www.fsr.net
> > >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >          
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >>
> =======================================================
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> =======================================================
> > >> > List services made available by First
> Step Internet,
> > >> > serving the communities of the Palouse
> since 1994.
> > >> >               http://www.fsr.net
> > >>
> > >> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> >
> > >>
> =======================================================
> > >> >
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> >
> =======================================================
> >  List services made available by First Step Internet, 
> >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
> >                http://www.fsr.net                     
>  
> >           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >
> =======================================================