[Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
lfalen
lfalen at turbonet.com
Tue Feb 24 12:59:53 PST 2009
Thanks Gary
This was so far off the deep end, I was not going to even reply to it.
Roger
-----Original message-----
From: "g. crabtree" jampot at roadrunner.com
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:09:35 -0800
To: garrettmc at verizon.net, "vision 2020" vision2020 at moscow.com, "Sunil Ramalingam" sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
> "Is it so hard for you to admit that there is a possibility that US policy
> has indeed created the very terrorists we are trying to destroy? And I'm
> not talking about because they hate our freedom or values, but because we
> have killed innocents as well..."
>
> If I believed for one minute that it were true I wouldn't. I believe that
> the enemy
> we are at war with does in fact hate our freedoms and values and resents its
> own
> lack stature in the world, particularly in light of what it sees as its
> former glory.
>
> If, as you claim, the terrorism we face today is brought about by the
> innocents
> who have died as a by product of US actions why do we see no North American
> indig
> terrorism? After WW I & II did we endure a rash of Teutonic terrorism?
> Radical Shinto
> terrorism? Vietnamese terrorism? Do you contend that no innocents were
> inadvertently
> killed during these conflicts? What is the difference between then and now,
> them and
> our current foes? Why did our actions then not give rise to the same
> terrorism we see now?
>
> If this problem truly is all about "American empire" why do bombs go off in
> night clubs
> in Bali and subways in Spain? Why riots in France, murders in the
> Netherlands. European
> tourists murdered and maimed in Cairo. China is experiencing problems with a
> certain
> belligerent religious minority. Even the UK, a country that bends over
> backward to appease its
> malcontents is experiencing extreme unrest.
>
> The inescapable conclusion a rational person will come to is that militant
> Islam and
> wahabaism are the common denominator and I firmly believe that you can offer
> up all
> the maudlin mea culpas and a truck load of tearful apologies and it won't
> reduce the
> terrorism one little bit. Even if we were to attempt to placate them by
> joining in with
> their unconscionable pogrom to eradicate Jews, their goodwill (the aftermath
> in Bosnia being a shining
> example of undying Islamic gratitude) would only last until their goal had
> been met and we would
> be back to the status quo of submit, convert, or die.
>
> I, Personally, refuse to apologize and I'm not to wild about submission,
> conversion is out of the question, and when it comes to death I figure
> better
> them then me. Call me crazy.
>
> As-sallamu aleykum!
> g
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Garrett Clevenger" <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> To: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Sunil Ramalingam"
> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>; "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
>
>
> > You are correct, g, there are exceptions to any rule. If someone were
> > pointing a gun at someone I love, I wouldn't hesitate to do what is
> > necessary to insure their survival. Yes, there are bad people who probably
> > should be culled out.
> >
> > Unfortunately, national defense does require the use of the same force in
> > certain circumstances. As I didn't want to subject this list to more
> > cataloging than I've already inputed, I suppose my lack of specifics may
> > lead some to believe I believe otherwise. In your wisdom, you point out
> > that my general argument is not universal.
> >
> > That's different than preemptively using such force half way around the
> > world based on false pretenses, particularly when that argument can be
> > used by the other side to strike first as well.
> >
> > The fact is, not only do we share similar justification with the other
> > side, the US is the one who has spent billions more $$$, killed a lot more
> > people and caused way more destruction than we have received, while
> > threatening our children's future with not only the financial debt they'll
> > incur, but the added seeds of resentment that surely will keep the spiral
> > rolling indefinitely.
> >
> > I hate calling that a war, because wars eventually end.
> >
> > Is it so hard for you to admit that there is a possibility that US policy
> > has indeed created the very terrorists we are trying to destroy? And I'm
> > not talking about because they hate our freedom or values, but because we
> > have killed innocents as well...
> >
> > gclev
> >
> > --- On Mon, 2/23/09, g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >
> >> From: g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
> >> To: garrettmc at verizon.net, "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Sunil
> >> Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> >> Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 7:27 AM
> >> The quote:
> >>
> >> " I imagine most of these acts are
> >> consequences of the American Empire willing to commit the
> >> same atrocities."
> >>
> >> I suppose the question is, the same as who, The Girl
> >> Scouts? The Red Cross? It seems clear to me that since the
> >> topic was terrorism and that among the terrorists in
> >> question we find the taliban and al-qaeda at the top of the
> >> list, there was no need for wild speculation on my part.
> >>
> >> Moving on, "Anyone willing to kill for their agenda is
> >> sick and should be treated. Perhaps a lobotomy would be the
> >> cure, rather than killing them outright?"
> >>
> >> I guess I have to assume that, considering your moral
> >> equivalence position that you include US and coalition
> >> troops in this group along with law enforcement officials
> >> and anyone else who might be willing to use ultimate
> >> measures to protect themselves or there loved ones?
> >>
> >> There's going to be a dreadful dearth of stimulating
> >> conversation in your little corner of Hell.
> >>
> >> g
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Garrett Clevenger"
> >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> >> To: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>;
> >> "Sunil Ramalingam"
> >> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> >> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 10:25 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
> >>
> >>
> >> > Thanks, Sunil. I suppose we all read between the lines
> >> in our interpretations of the limitation of email
> >> conversation. Once we get hot-headed, that interpretation
> >> probably is distorted even more so.
> >> >
> >> > Obviously, moral equivalences are not so much based on
> >> particular nationalities, but on the individuals who act
> >> immoral. Some in the US probably are the moral equivalent
> >> of some members of the taliban or al qaeda.
> >> >
> >> > Anyone willing to kill for their agenda is sick and
> >> should be treated. Perhaps a lobotomy would be the cure,
> >> rather than killing them outright?
> >> >
> >> > gclev
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, Sunil Ramalingam
> >> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> From: Sunil Ramalingam
> >> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> >> >> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations
> >> work
> >> >> To: jampot at roadrunner.com, garrettmc at verizon.net,
> >> "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> >> Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 9:35 PM
> >> >> I don't think Garrett made the claim you
> >> attribute to
> >> >> him, and you're speculating wildly in claiming
> >> he
> >> >> believes what you write below.
> >> >>
> >> >> Do you really think that dropping bombs on cities
> >> has some
> >> >> moral superiority over 'terrorism?' Are
> >> those
> >> >> victims any less dead?
> >> >>
> >> >> Sunil
> >> >>
> >> >> > From: jampot at roadrunner.com
> >> >> > To: garrettmc at verizon.net;
> >> vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> > Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:29:11 -0800
> >> >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane
> >> interrogations work
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Take from my response anything you like.
> >> It's
> >> >> definitely not that I have no
> >> >> > argument with your diatribe, it's just
> >> that I see
> >> >> little point in trying to
> >> >> > have a discussion with anyone who actually
> >> believes
> >> >> that the USA is the
> >> >> > moral equivalent of al-qaeda or the taliban.
> >> If
> >> >> that's the world you live in
> >> >> > I feel sorry for you but I really don't
> >> believe
> >> >> there is any common ground
> >> >> > from which to move this dialog forward. As
> >> for your
> >> >> infernal living
> >> >> > arrangements, again my sympathies but I'm
> >> afraid I
> >> >> can accept no
> >> >> > responsibility for where you choose to
> >> reside.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > g
> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> > From: "Garrett Clevenger"
> >> >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> >> >> > To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "g.
> >> >> crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> >> > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 5:49 PM
> >> >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane
> >> interrogations work
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > I'll take it from your snide
> >> response, g,
> >> >> that you have no argument
> >> >> > > against my diatribe.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > You did prove Donovan's point,
> >> though, that
> >> >> some poeple just can't be
> >> >> > > reasoned with, and my point, due to
> >> this, that
> >> >> perhaps we are condemned to
> >> >> > > live in Hell.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Congratulation's on helping keep the
> >> ball
> >> >> rolling...
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > gclev
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, g. crabtree
> >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >> From: g. crabtree
> >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane
> >> >> interrogations work
> >> >> > >> To: garrettmc at verizon.net,
> >> >> vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> > >> Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009,
> >> 12:25 PM
> >> >> > >> "I imagine most of these acts
> >> are
> >> >> consequences of the
> >> >> > >> American Empire willing to commit
> >> the same
> >> >> atrocities."
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> I'm thinking not so much a book
> >> as a tool
> >> >> catalog.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> As the Ham-ster would say "nuff
> >> >> said."
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> g
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- From:
> >> >> "Garrett
> >> >> > >> Clevenger"
> >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> >> >> > >> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>;
> >> "g.
> >> >> crabtree"
> >> >> > >> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> >> > >> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009
> >> 7:53 PM
> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane
> >> >> interrogations work
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> > I don't condone the violent
> >> acts you
> >> >> mention,
> >> >> > >> either, whether committed by suicide
> >> bombers,
> >> >> alleged
> >> >> > >> hijackers, or the powers that be
> >> that distort
> >> >> truth for
> >> >> > >> their own agenda. I imagine most of
> >> these
> >> >> acts are
> >> >> > >> consequences of the American Empire
> >> willing
> >> >> to commit the
> >> >> > >> same atrocities.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > There may be some imagined
> >> slights, but
> >> >> there are also
> >> >> > >> some very real slights. History is
> >> replete
> >> >> with examples of
> >> >> > >> US policy directly responsible for
> >> killing
> >> >> innocents. If
> >> >> > >> you're willing to retaliate for
> >> feeling
> >> >> slighted, why
> >> >> > >> wouldn't your supposed enemies,
> >> >> who've probably
> >> >> > >> witnessed more bloodshed than
> >> hopefully
> >> >> we'll ever see,
> >> >> > >> want vengeance, too?
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > You're probably aware of
> >> the US
> >> >> financial and
> >> >> > >> military support of Saddam Hussein
> >> during the
> >> >> 80's. The
> >> >> > >> US backed Iraq in their war against
> >> Iran,
> >> >> where a million or
> >> >> > >> so people were killed. The US also
> >> knew
> >> >> Saddam was gassing
> >> >> > >> the Kurds, where, guess what,
> >> innocent women,
> >> >> children and
> >> >> > >> men died of chemical weapons. But
> >> apparently,
> >> >> the US
> >> >> > >> condoned Saddam's actions.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > The Iranians suffered under the
> >> Shaw, a
> >> >> dictator
> >> >> > >> propped up by the US. The Saudis,
> >> too, suffer
> >> >> under the
> >> >> > >> Sauds, who the US is willing to
> >> support to
> >> >> insure access to
> >> >> > >> oil, and military bases.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > As for Osama, the CIA trained
> >> and paid
> >> >> him and his
> >> >> > >> muhjadeen during the Afghan war
> >> against the
> >> >> Soviets. So the
> >> >> > >> US is implicated in the deaths they
> >> caused
> >> >> during that war,
> >> >> > >> as well.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > Those are only a few of the
> >> reasons some
> >> >> people hate
> >> >> > >> the US and are trying to bring it
> >> down, to
> >> >> hold its citizens
> >> >> > >> accountable, to make us pay with
> >> similar
> >> >> heartache. It was
> >> >> > >> only a matter of time before all
> >> that pent up
> >> >> anger would
> >> >> > >> make its way to the US,
> >> unfortunately.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > It seems unfair of you to be
> >> upset over
> >> >> the deaths of
> >> >> > >> Americans, but not of other people
> >> who died
> >> >> as a result of
> >> >> > >> US policy. Personally, I think all
> >> of these
> >> >> deaths are a
> >> >> > >> travesty.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > Nothing exist inside a vacuum.
> >> Every
> >> >> bomb has a boom.
> >> >> > >> Every person who is tortured brings
> >> us closer
> >> >> to our doom.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > All our values will not save
> >> us. All our
> >> >> wealth is
> >> >> > >> valueless when we become like our
> >> enemy and
> >> >> sell our souls
> >> >> > >> to oppress.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > We live in a freer society than
> >> where
> >> >> the alleged
> >> >> > >> terrorist dwell. We have access to
> >> more info,
> >> >> and the
> >> >> > >> ability to dissent. These other folk
> >> have
> >> >> seen, and are
> >> >> > >> taught, how US policy is
> >> hypocritical and
> >> >> leads to their
> >> >> > >> becoming second class citizens. If I
> >> lived
> >> >> there and lost a
> >> >> > >> loved one due to the US, I'd be
> >> pretty
> >> >> pissed, too. I
> >> >> > >> can empathize with their frustration
> >> at what
> >> >> seems to be
> >> >> > >> policy designed to enrich some in
> >> the US at
> >> >> the expense of
> >> >> > >> their well-being. I'm actually
> >> surprised
> >> >> their isn't
> >> >> > >> more retaliation, but maybe
> >> that's due to
> >> >> there being
> >> >> > >> more saner heads than we know, or
> >> maybe due
> >> >> to increased
> >> >> > >> security.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > These people's view of
> >> history,
> >> >> whether accurate
> >> >> > >> or not, becomes part of their
> >> psyche. I can
> >> >> imagine how that
> >> >> > >> shapes their behavior and view of
> >> the US.
> >> >> Since they live in
> >> >> > >> a more repressive regime, it's a
> >> lot
> >> >> harder for them to
> >> >> > >> break the cycle of hatred they have
> >> towards
> >> >> us. Since they
> >> >> > >> aren't as comfortable, it's
> >> probably
> >> >> a lot harder
> >> >> > >> for them to keep their cool. Those
> >> that are
> >> >> more tolerant
> >> >> > >> are probably ostracized. The ones
> >> who
> >> >> retaliate against us
> >> >> > >> are revered. Thus, natural selection
> >> leads to
> >> >> violence
> >> >> > >> against the US, and themselves.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > I imagine there are people over
> >> there
> >> >> like you who
> >> >> > >> rally others to act violent. They
> >> probably
> >> >> say the same
> >> >> > >> thing you do, and so people are
> >> enlisted into
> >> >> what means
> >> >> > >> they have of retaliation. If China
> >> were
> >> >> taking over our
> >> >> > >> country with military might instead
> >> of
> >> >> financially, perhaps
> >> >> > >> we'd have more freedom fighters
> >> willing
> >> >> to kill and die
> >> >> > >> to protect our homeland, and
> >> we'd have a
> >> >> better
> >> >> > >> understanding of why some are
> >> willing to make
> >> >> the ultimate
> >> >> > >> sacrifice in what they deem to be
> >> defense of
> >> >> their country.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > It's only natural to want
> >> to protect
> >> >> what you
> >> >> > >> love. It's natural to want to
> >> retaliate.
> >> >> > >> > It makes perfect sense to me
> >> that
> >> >> violence begets
> >> >> > >> violence. We send our soldiers
> >> there, who
> >> >> bomb and kill
> >> >> > >> innocent people, which then leads to
> >> pissed
> >> >> off people who
> >> >> > >> want to bomb us back. But that
> >> doesn't it
> >> >> make it right,
> >> >> > >> or in our best interest. It just
> >> makes it
> >> >> look like
> >> >> > >> we're barbarians.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > The war of terror the US is
> >> engaged in
> >> >> only seems to
> >> >> > >> promote further violence, which
> >> means the war
> >> >> of terror
> >> >> > >> needs more money and troops to fight
> >> that
> >> >> violence. It's
> >> >> > >> absurd to think we can keep killing,
> >> >> torturing and bombing
> >> >> > >> our way out of this mess, especially
> >> >> considering there is
> >> >> > >> historical justification for people
> >> to be mad
> >> >> at us for us
> >> >> > >> letting our government commit
> >> violence.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > By letting them use our tax
> >> dollars,
> >> >> like it or not,
> >> >> > >> we are guilty of killing people, and
> >> thus,
> >> >> there really are
> >> >> > >> no innocent people, unless you are
> >> protesting
> >> >> and not paying
> >> >> > >> taxes. Since we are freer, we're
> >> actually
> >> >> more guilty
> >> >> > >> than those in more repressive
> >> regimes who
> >> >> have no means of
> >> >> > >> deposing of their government. We do
> >> not have
> >> >> to be pawns in
> >> >> > >> the US empire. We do not have to let
> >> them
> >> >> engage our
> >> >> > >> military in foreign excursions that
> >> quite
> >> >> obviously are
> >> >> > >> mostly intended to secure oil
> >> reserves.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > We've spent hundreds of
> >> billions of
> >> >> dollars, lost
> >> >> > >> more Americans than who died during
> >> the 911
> >> >> strikes, and
> >> >> > >> killed many, many tens of thousands
> >> of
> >> >> innocent people in
> >> >> > >> our desire for vengeance. For what?
> >> More
> >> >> hatred towards us,
> >> >> > >> more loss of lives, and more
> >> indebtedness to
> >> >> fund this
> >> >> > >> folly.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > I'm able to condemn all
> >> these acts
> >> >> of violence as
> >> >> > >> the same evil they are: willing to
> >> kill for
> >> >> > >> self-righteousness.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > Admittedly, at this point,
> >> there is no
> >> >> easy solution.
> >> >> > >> Considering we have a hard time
> >> treating our
> >> >> own with
> >> >> > >> respect amongst our different
> >> viewpoints,
> >> >> perhaps we're
> >> >> > >> condemned to live in this hell. We
> >> all are
> >> >> animals
> >> >> > >> essentially controlled by our
> >> emotions. Our
> >> >> higher being is
> >> >> > >> smothered by those who want to lash
> >> out. We
> >> >> all have these
> >> >> > >> feelings, but we all can be redeemed
> >> if
> >> >> we're courageous
> >> >> > >> enough to stand up to the powers
> >> that be and
> >> >> say,
> >> >> > >> "Enough!"
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > For starters though, we need to
> >> reign in
> >> >> the American
> >> >> > >> empire. We need to hold Israel
> >> accountable
> >> >> for it's
> >> >> > >> double standards against the
> >> Palestinians. We
> >> >> need to stop
> >> >> > >> supporting repressive regimes. We
> >> need to
> >> >> have compassionate
> >> >> > >> policy that treats all Earthlings
> >> with
> >> >> respect. We need to
> >> >> > >> take the higher ground and say,
> >> >> "Sorry."
> >> >> > >> Reconciliation may sound cheesy, but
> >> it goes
> >> >> a long way in
> >> >> > >> leading to forgiveness for our
> >> trespasses.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > The other alternative is to
> >> keep digging
> >> >> ourselves in
> >> >> > >> this hole of hatred, which will lead
> >> to
> >> >> further acts that
> >> >> > >> we'll feel we'll need to
> >> retaliate
> >> >> against, ad
> >> >> > >> nauseam.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > Corrosive cynicism warmongers
> >> display
> >> >> certainly
> >> >> > >> isn't the answer.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > Sorry for the book. This
> >> definitely
> >> >> became longer than
> >> >> > >> intended...
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > Peace,
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > gclev
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > --- On Sat, 2/21/09, g.
> >> crabtree
> >> >> > >> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> >> From: g. crabtree
> >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> >> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
> >> Humane
> >> >> interrogations
> >> >> > >> work
> >> >> > >> >> To: garrettmc at verizon.net,
> >> >> vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> > >> >> Date: Saturday, February
> >> 21, 2009,
> >> >> 3:21 PM
> >> >> > >> >> "Let's assume for
> >> a moment
> >> >> that
> >> >> > >> terrorists are not
> >> >> > >> >> cockroaches, but humans who
> >> like you
> >> >> and I have
> >> >> > >> the same
> >> >> > >> >> emotions of bitterness,
> >> anger and
> >> >> desire to
> >> >> > >> retaliate."
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> Retaliate for what? Sorry,
> >> but I
> >> >> can't even
> >> >> > >> begin to
> >> >> > >> >> imagine flying jumbo jets
> >> into
> >> >> buildings full of
> >> >> > >> innocents
> >> >> > >> >> or strapping on a bomb and
> >> going out
> >> >> and
> >> >> > >> deliberately
> >> >> > >> >> killing women and children
> >> most of
> >> >> whom are my own
> >> >> > >> >> countrymen.
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> "Why do you think
> >> these people
> >> >> would commit
> >> >> > >> such
> >> >> > >> >> dastardly deeds, willing to
> >> kill
> >> >> other people?
> >> >> > >> What
> >> >> > >> >> specifics would drive these
> >> people
> >> >> to act
> >> >> > >> so?"
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> According to Osama
> >> Bin-Laden, the
> >> >> justification to
> >> >> > >> murder
> >> >> > >> >> nearly 3000 innocent men,
> >> women, and
> >> >> children was
> >> >> > >> that after
> >> >> > >> >> the first gulf war we were
> >> not quick
> >> >> enough in
> >> >> > >> removing all
> >> >> > >> >> of our troops from Saudi
> >> Arabia to
> >> >> suit his
> >> >> > >> tastes. Never
> >> >> > >> >> mind that the Saudi
> >> government had
> >> >> made no request
> >> >> > >> for us to
> >> >> > >> >> speed up the rate at which
> >> our
> >> >> forces were to pull
> >> >> > >> out. To
> >> >> > >> >> the contrary, they were
> >> rather
> >> >> pleased to have us
> >> >> > >> in country
> >> >> > >> >> in the short term.
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> Also, he was miffed with
> >> our support
> >> >> for Israel,
> >> >> > >> totally
> >> >> > >> >> ignoring the fact that
> >> along with
> >> >> the aid we send
> >> >> > >> to that
> >> >> > >> >> country, we also spend
> >> billions in
> >> >> aid to Syria,
> >> >> > >> Jordan,
> >> >> > >> >> Egypt, Lebanon,
> >> Afghanistan, and
> >> >> Saudi Arabia.
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> As you can see, I am rather
> >> at a
> >> >> loss. Please feel
> >> >> > >> free to
> >> >> > >> >> jump in and enlighten me as
> >> to why
> >> >> we were so
> >> >> > >> richly
> >> >> > >> >> deserving of radical muslim
> >> hatred
> >> >> and how the
> >> >> > >> losses we
> >> >> > >> >> sustained on 9/11 could be
> >> justified
> >> >> as simple pay
> >> >> > >> back for
> >> >> > >> >> our misdeeds. What is it
> >> that you
> >> >> imagine we might
> >> >> > >> do that
> >> >> > >> >> would sooth these peoples
> >> imagined
> >> >> slights?
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> g
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message
> >> ----- From:
> >> >> "Garrett
> >> >> > >> Clevenger"
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> >> >> > >> >> To:
> >> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> >> > >> >> Sent: Saturday, February
> >> 21, 2009
> >> >> 11:11 AM
> >> >> > >> >> Subject: [Vision2020]
> >> Humane
> >> >> interrogations work
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> > g,
> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> > Let's assume for a
> >> moment
> >> >> that terrorists
> >> >> > >> are not
> >> >> > >> >> cockroaches, but humans who
> >> like you
> >> >> and I have
> >> >> > >> the same
> >> >> > >> >> emotions of bitterness,
> >> anger and
> >> >> desire to
> >> >> > >> retaliate.
> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> > Why do you think these
> >> people
> >> >> would commit
> >> >> > >> such
> >> >> > >> >> dastardly deeds, willing to
> >> kill
> >> >> other people?
> >> >> > >> What
> >> >> > >> >> specifics would drive these
> >> people
> >> >> to act so?
> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> > I'm asking to see
> >> if we
> >> >> could reason as
> >> >> > >> to why we
> >> >> > >> >> live in a world seemingly
> >> filled
> >> >> with violence due
> >> >> > >> to humans
> >> >> > >> >> striking fellow humans, so
> >> as to
> >> >> possibly
> >> >> > >> extricate
> >> >> > >> >> ourselves from this deadly
> >> spiral...
> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> > gclev
> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >>
> >> >>
> >> =======================================================
> >> >> > >> >> > List services made
> >> available by
> >> >> First Step
> >> >> > >> Internet,
> >> >> > >> >> > serving the
> >> communities of the
> >> >> Palouse since
> >> >> > >> 1994.
> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >>
> >> >>
> >> =======================================================
> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> =======================================================
> >> >> > List services made available by First Step
> >> Internet,
> >> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since
> >> 1994.
> >> >> > http://www.fsr.net
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> =======================================================
> >> >
> >> >
> >> =======================================================
> >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> > http://www.fsr.net
> >>
> >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >
> >> =======================================================
> >> >
> >
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
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