[Vision2020] [Spam 5.59] Re: Subject change to "Was it Necessary to Use theAtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
lfalen
lfalen at turbonet.com
Tue Feb 24 13:03:43 PST 2009
D.A.R.E is a good program. The idea behind it is to say no to a dare.
Roger
-----Original message-----
From: "Warren Hayman" whayman at roadrunner.com
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:13:36 -0800
To: "lfalen" lfalen at turbonet.com, "Sue Hovey" suehovey at moscow.com, donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Spam 5.59] Re: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it Necessary to Use theAtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
> So we can get rid of the DARE program in the school district? Great idea!
>
> Warren Hayman
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> To: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>; <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>;
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 12:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it Necessary to Use
> theAtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
>
>
> > Sue
> > The mentality behind issuing a dare is harmful, just as is the mentality
> > of casting shame on being an snitch, or stoolie. A dare is a challenge to
> > some ones bravery, like you are a coward if you don't accept. This can get
> > kids in a lot of trouble and should be something teachers are fighting
> > against. In reality rejecting a dare takes more courage than accepting
> > one.
> > Roger
> > -----Original message-----
> > From: "Sue Hovey" suehovey at moscow.com
> > Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 01:03:25 -0800
> > To: "lfalen" lfalen at turbonet.com, donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com,
> > vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it Necessary to Use the
> > AtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
> >
> >> I sent this to Donovan. I didn't dare you to do anything....I don't care
> >> whether you read Hershey's book or not...And why, pray tell, is it
> >> shameful
> >> for me to issue a dare to him? Are your standards for teachers somewhat
> >> more skewed than for other such ordinary folk? He didn't respond anyway,
> >> so
> >> we'll never know whether he decided to read it. And the word is
> >> bearing.....
> >>
> >> Sue H.
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> >> To: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>; <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>;
> >> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 9:50 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it Necessary to Use the
> >> AtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
> >>
> >>
> >> > Shame on you Sue as a teacher for issuing a dare. I may or may not
> >> > read
> >> > Hershey's book. A dare would have absolutely no baring on it.
> >> > Roger
> >> > -----Original message-----
> >> > From: "Sue Hovey" suehovey at moscow.com
> >> > Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 02:12:03 -0800
> >> > To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > Subject: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it Necessary to Use the
> >> > AtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
> >> >
> >> >> 1. I agree, it did end the war quickly--in a matter of days.
> >> >> 2. And if the bombs hadn't been dropped, how much less intact would
> >> >> have
> >> >> Japan been on Sep 1, 1945?
> >> >> 3. It did that. And we had committed to the goal of unconditional
> >> >> surrender.
> >> >> 4. No, no, no....it did not.
> >> >> 5. But they didn't back out of Germany....And they were already
> >> >> developing nuclear weapons.
> >> >> 6. Well you got me there & I was living in Texas then, but Bentson
> >> >> wasn't the U.S. Senator from Texas until quite a bit later, so I
> >> >> really
> >> >> don't believe this happened. During the Korean war I think our
> >> >> senators
> >> >> were LBJ and Tom Connally.
> >> >> 7. Maybe so, maybe not.
> >> >>
> >> >> Go ahead and read Hershey's book. I double dare you. You may not be
> >> >> convinced, but you will have another perspective to chew on.
> >> >>
> >> >> Sue H.
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: Donovan Arnold
> >> >> To: vision2020 at moscow.com ; Sue Hovey
> >> >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 8:45 PM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Presidential Rankings (2009)
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Sue,
> >> >>
> >> >> It was necessary to drop the bomb for several reasons.
> >> >>
> >> >> 1) It brought a quick end to the war
> >> >> 2) It kept the rest of Japan intact
> >> >> 3) It gave us an unconditional surrender, which is what the
> >> >> Allies swore to do
> >> >> 4) It limited Casualties on both sides of the war
> >> >> 5) It showed Russia that we have the bomb, and will use it, so
> >> >> back out of Germany and Western Europe.
> >> >> 6) The aftermath of the A-Bomb, its horrible impact on people,
> >> >> helped Senator Benston-D Texas, convince the Senate to block General
> >> >> MacArthur's attempts to end the Korean War by dropping 50 A-Bombs on
> >> >> China.
> >> >> 7) It has prevented anyone from using a nuclear bomb again
> >> >>
> >> >> So, I have read the arguments. I don't think your friend,
> >> >> Hershey, had any greater insight than Truman or his advisers. Hershey
> >> >> was
> >> >> just 31, Truman was President, he had more information and a bigger
> >> >> picture of the issues at the time.
> >> >>
> >> >> The consequences of not dropping the bomb would have been
> >> >> worse.
> >> >> Hard to believe, but it would have been.
> >> >>
> >> >> Best Regards,
> >> >>
> >> >> Donovan
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> From: Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com>
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Presidential Rankings (2009)
> >> >> To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 8:10 PM
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Donovan,
> >> >>
> >> >> For an interesting and opposing view, you might take a look
> >> >> at
> >> >> John Hershey's Hiroshima, the Aftermath, published in the 1980s. It's
> >> >> one thing to have had to make that call, as Truman did, for a nation
> >> >> weary of war, and quite another to quote as fact today the idea that
> >> >> the
> >> >> dropping of the atom bombs was necessary to save a million lives.
> >> >>
> >> >> Sue H.
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: Donovan Arnold
> >> >> To: vision2020 at moscow.com ; Kenneth Marcy
> >> >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:27 PM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Presidential Rankings (2009)
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> People that were against the dropping of the atom
> >> >> bombs
> >> >> on Japan in WWII were obviously ignorant of the larger number of
> >> >> causalities it would have cost both Japan and the US in its place, and
> >> >> were insensitive to massive suffering and loss of life that the US and
> >> >> others had already endured.
> >> >>
> >> >> Truman only had two options. 1) To kill one million
> >> >> more people, both Japanese and Americans, or 2) Kill 100,000 Japanese
> >> >> that started the war and end it.
> >> >>
> >> >> To me, the choice is obvious. I am sure Truman would
> >> >> have dropped 12 billion roses instead if it ended the war, but it
> >> >> wouldn't, so he did what had to do to end the war. And dropping the
> >> >> bomb
> >> >> barely did end the war as Japan still didn't want to surrender
> >> >> initially
> >> >> after that.
> >> >>
> >> >> Best Regards.
> >> >>
> >> >> Donovan
> >> >>
> >> >> --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Kenneth Marcy
> >> >> <kmmos1 at verizon.net>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> From: Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1 at verizon.net>
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Presidential Rankings
> >> >> (2009)
> >> >> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 12:45 PM
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wednesday 18 February 2009 14:03:26 Kai Eiselein wrote:> Sooooo,
> >> >> would
> >> >> this apply to those who condemn the use of nuclear bombs on>
> >> >> Japan?Yes. I
> >> >> think that the Allies, and the Americans specifically, were war-weary
> >> >> from large social and industrial reorganizations to support a war
> >> >> effort
> >> >> then beyond all those previous. The prospect of any necessity of
> >> >> taking a
> >> >> land war from the Allies into Asia implied such huge additional losses
> >> >> that any way to end the Nipponese war, and prevent its spread more
> >> >> generally to Asia, was seen as a useful effort.More so than any
> >> >> subsequent major conflict, World War II was seen as a just war; the
> >> >> Allied cause was worth winning for good reasons, and all efforts
> >> >> toward
> >> >> that end were justified.Yes, the atomic destruction was horrific, no
> >> >> doubt about it, and on sight of the test blast, the
> >> >> decision makers all knew it. Oppenheimer said in New Mexico "I am
> >> >> become
> >> >> death." And the chain of command, from Groves upto Marshall and then
> >> >> to
> >> >> Truman, presumably had some idea of the much larger magnitude of the
> >> >> atom
> >> >> bombs, so the decision to use them was in service of ending the
> >> >> Nipponese
> >> >> war sooner rather than later.> Or the fire bombing of Germany?Without
> >> >> reviewing the technical details, I will just say that after the U.S.
> >> >> joined the Allied cause then underway, there was a strong
> >> >> determination
> >> >> to see the war effort through to a victorious decision. No one doubted
> >> >> the justness of the Allied cause, nor did anyone doubt that the awful
> >> >> destruction was beneath the dignified preferences of civil societies.
> >> >> However, the Axis aggression had to be stopped, and the prosecution of
> >> >> the European efforts continued until that goal was reached. Whether
> >> >> the
> >> >> goal could have been achieved more
> >> >> optimally with less destruction was a judgment call; second guessing
> >> >> and
> >> >> arm-chair quarterbacking more than half a century later won't change
> >> >> their determination then to get the job done with what was available.>
> >> >> Or, the actions Europeans took in the Americas after stumbling upon
> >> >> the>
> >> >> contintents?Considering that Europeans first began attempting
> >> >> permanent
> >> >> North American settlements centuries ago, it is even more important
> >> >> for
> >> >> us not to impose our mind-set on their attitudes and motivations. Some
> >> >> of
> >> >> the earliest were explorers, somewhat later they were escaping
> >> >> religious
> >> >> differences. Yes, they had racist attitudes. Yes, they felt their
> >> >> technologies and their old-world civilization gave them a sense of
> >> >> entitlement to what they saw before them. There was no North American
> >> >> parliament with proportional representation of the indigenous peoples,
> >> >> and if anyone had been so foolish as
> >> >> to suggest one, they would have been laughed, or worse, out of the
> >> >> colony.>From our contemporary understandings we can easily and glibly
> >> >> say
> >> >> that the Europeans should have accepted the natives as human equals.
> >> >> But
> >> >> not all of them were willing to accept the "savages" as fully human.
> >> >> They
> >> >> didnot have the advantage of knowing about Darwinian science,
> >> >> Mendelian
> >> >> genetics, and contemporary molecular biology that illustrates our
> >> >> closer
> >> >> human kinship than their observations of skin color, physiognomy, and
> >> >> social culture allowed. Even today not all of us have learned these
> >> >> lessons sufficiently well, so who are we to suggest that those early
> >> >> colonists were incompletely informed?> After all, there are those who
> >> >> do
> >> >> the same in those instances.> My comment wasn't so much anti-war as it
> >> >> was historical fact. For some> reason Vietnam and Kennedy are kept
> >> >> conspicuously separated in
> >> >> history> textbooks, even though Kennedy's actions led the U.S.
> >> >> directly
> >> >> intothe> Vietnam war.Yes, it is true that many Americans are a
> >> >> soft-hearted bunch, preferring polite conversation and gentle
> >> >> reminiscences of how nice the Kennedy family looked, how cute and
> >> >> adorable the children were, and on and on. Oh my, wouldn't it be fun
> >> >> to
> >> >> sail with Jack and the boys, or ride English side-saddle with Jackie
> >> >> and
> >> >> the ladies? How wonderful we could feel about ourselves, fantasizing
> >> >> ourselves into a far-away Camelot!As the older generations fade into
> >> >> memory, younger generations of historians will probably have sharper
> >> >> things to say about how close we came to a Soviet American war near
> >> >> Cuba,
> >> >> and how lucky we were for back-channel communication between the
> >> >> nonagenarian English Lord Russell and Nikita Khrushchev, and some
> >> >> other
> >> >> fortunate military command communications incidents that
> >> >> forestalled active engagement.> On another note, it was Kennedy who
> >> >> signed legislation allowing U.S.> companies to set up shop in foriegn
> >> >> countries without having to pay U.S.> income taxes on their profits
> >> >> from
> >> >> those units. The idea was that by> bringing jobs into countries that
> >> >> were
> >> >> at risk of falling to the commies,> it would make communism less
> >> >> appealing. It was a logical move.There probably were multiple reasons
> >> >> for
> >> >> allowing tax-free foreign commerce by American organizations. Profits
> >> >> likely were a part of it, as was the opportunity to extend the de
> >> >> facto
> >> >> American intelligence network abroad, but outside of the usual
> >> >> military
> >> >> and diplomatic channels. And I would not be surprised to learn that
> >> >> the
> >> >> administration found it convenient to allow certain organizations to
> >> >> operate profitably without any necessity for their books to be
> >> >> examined
> >> >> by anyone in an official sphere. The
> >> >> darker corners of commercial activity can benefit more than just
> >> >> capitalists, as many have noted since then.> Unfortunately, an
> >> >> unintended
> >> >> consequence has been the wholesale migration> of U.S. companies
> >> >> abroad.Companies have been operating for profit internationally since
> >> >> ancient trading times, so international business is nothing new.
> >> >> Consequences, unintended or not, can be changed if the courage and
> >> >> collective will are marshalled to change laws and behaviors to more
> >> >> desirable patterns. This is a question of needed leadership, not of
> >> >> the
> >> >> horses irrevocably having escaped the barn.> How much howling from big
> >> >> biz do you think there would be if the law was> repealed and they had
> >> >> to
> >> >> pay taxes on their foreign income?How much howling is there over any
> >> >> contentious tax issue? Capital gains, for example? Too often, the
> >> >> lobbyists and the committee chairmen decide their
> >> >> answer, and that's that. Powerless citizens may howl all they wish,
> >> >> to
> >> >> little avail. Powerful interests need not howl at all; they pay their
> >> >> agents and their will is carried out via gallons of ink printed on
> >> >> paper
> >> >> mountains.Fundamental tax reform, as opposed to rearrangement of
> >> >> regulations, is relatively rare in the United States. For example, the
> >> >> US
> >> >> does not have a national property tax on large holdings of private
> >> >> property, specifically land. Why do not corporations and individuals
> >> >> who
> >> >> own millions of acres of land pay no federal property taxes on those
> >> >> large holdings? Exemptions for a few thousand acres of actively
> >> >> farmed,
> >> >> or recently fallowed, land could easily be arranged, so working farm
> >> >> families would be exempted. So, for the remaining land hoarders, why
> >> >> should they not pay some small rate of property tax to help offset the
> >> >> government expenses of their national defense and liberties
> >> >> preservation? Jefferson bought the Louisiana Purchase from the French
> >> >> to
> >> >> enlarge the United States. Don't we all have an obligation to
> >> >> periodically re-examine who owns what land, and to re-evaluate how to
> >> >> keep that land optimally productive, financially and
> >> >> environmentally?Ken=======================================================
> >> >> List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
> >> >> communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com=======================================================
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> =======================================================
> >> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> =======================================================
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > =======================================================
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