[Vision2020] Humane interrogations work

[a]

Reading your list of possible other people who could have a vendetta against 
the US, g, leads to one common demoninator: violent US policy against people 
the US wanted to conform in it's image.

Let me get this straight. Imperial Japan and Adolph Hitler and the Nazi's 
were the recipients of "violent US policy against people the US wanted to 
conform in it's image."

You're to much.

g

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Garrett Clevenger" <garrettmc at verizon.net>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>; "vision 2020" 
<vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work


> Reading your list of possible other people who could have a vendetta 
> against the US, g, leads to one common demoninator: violent US policy 
> against people the US wanted to conform in it's image.
>
> Put that together with the common denominator you've deduced and you get 
> another common denominator: violent people wanting to control the world.
>
> The American empire is not the only problem. It's the fanatics behind any 
> ideology who are willing to kill. Just because the militant Islamists are 
> doing it is no justification that others should do it.
>
> The example the US sets sows the the seeds. Why would we expect other 
> ego's to be any better, if what they see is the US willing to shock and 
> awe the world into submission?
>
> Which leads to the lingo behind the war machine: hellfire missles, divine 
> strafe bombs, President Bush calling it a "crusade." When you put 
> religious terms on violent policies and weapons, that leads to another 
> common denominator: believing God condones that violent behavior and moral 
> superiority.
>
> Until we get rational leaders willing to understand violence begets 
> violence, we'll keep reaping violence.
>
> You end writing, "I, Personally, refuse to apologize and I'm not to wild 
> about submission, conversion is out of the question, and when it comes to 
> death I figure better them then me. Call me crazy."
>
> That's not crazy, as we all feel it. That's what's driving the whole 
> insanity, though, and all the bombs and blood spilt's not going to change 
> it. Which leads me to conclude we're creating our own hell, which is quite 
> ironic.
>
> Which leads to a final common denomitor: evil.
>
> gclev
>
>
>
> --- On Mon, 2/23/09, g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
>> From: g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
>> To: garrettmc at verizon.net, "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Sunil 
>> Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>> Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 8:09 PM
>> "Is it so hard for you to admit that there is a
>> possibility that US policy
>> has indeed created the very terrorists we are trying to
>> destroy? And I'm
>> not talking about because they hate our freedom or values,
>> but because we
>> have killed innocents as well..."
>>
>> If I believed for one minute that it were true I
>> wouldn't. I believe that the enemy
>> we are at war with does in fact hate our freedoms and
>> values and resents its own
>> lack stature in the world, particularly in light of what it
>> sees as its former glory.
>>
>> If, as you claim, the terrorism we face today is brought
>> about by the innocents
>> who have died as a by product of US actions why do we see
>> no North American indig
>> terrorism? After WW I & II did we endure a rash of
>> Teutonic terrorism? Radical Shinto
>> terrorism? Vietnamese terrorism? Do you contend that no
>> innocents were inadvertently
>> killed during these conflicts? What is the difference
>> between then and now, them and
>> our current foes? Why did our actions then not give rise to
>> the same terrorism we see now?
>>
>> If this problem truly is all about "American
>> empire" why do bombs go off in night clubs
>> in Bali and subways in Spain? Why riots in France, murders
>> in the Netherlands. European
>> tourists murdered and maimed in Cairo. China is
>> experiencing problems with a certain
>> belligerent religious minority. Even the UK, a country that
>> bends over backward to appease its
>> malcontents is experiencing extreme unrest.
>>
>> The inescapable conclusion a rational person will come to
>> is that militant Islam and
>> wahabaism are the common denominator and I firmly believe
>> that you can offer up all
>> the maudlin mea culpas and a truck load of tearful
>> apologies and it won't reduce the
>> terrorism one little bit. Even if we were to attempt to
>> placate them by joining in with
>> their unconscionable pogrom to eradicate Jews, their
>> goodwill (the aftermath in Bosnia being a shining
>> example of undying Islamic gratitude) would only last until
>> their goal had been met and we would
>> be back to the status quo of submit, convert, or die.
>>
>> I, Personally, refuse to apologize and I'm not to wild
>> about submission,
>> conversion is out of the question, and when it comes to
>> death I figure better
>> them then me. Call me crazy.
>>
>> As-sallamu aleykum!
>> g
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garrett
>> Clevenger" <garrettmc at verizon.net>
>> To: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>;
>> "Sunil Ramalingam"
>> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>; "g. crabtree"
>> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
>>
>>
>> > You are correct, g, there are exceptions to any rule.
>> If someone were pointing a gun at someone I love, I
>> wouldn't hesitate to do what is necessary to insure
>> their survival. Yes, there are bad people who probably
>> should be culled out.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, national defense does require the use
>> of the same force in certain circumstances. As I didn't
>> want to subject this list to more cataloging than I've
>> already inputed, I suppose my lack of specifics may lead
>> some to believe I believe otherwise. In your wisdom, you
>> point out that my general argument is not universal.
>> >
>> > That's different than preemptively using such
>> force half way around the world based on false pretenses,
>> particularly when that argument can be used by the other
>> side to strike first as well.
>> >
>> > The fact is, not only do we share similar
>> justification with the other side, the US is the one who has
>> spent billions more $$$, killed a lot more people and caused
>> way more destruction than we have received, while
>> threatening our children's future with not only the
>> financial debt they'll incur, but the added seeds of
>> resentment that surely will keep the spiral rolling
>> indefinitely.
>> >
>> > I hate calling that a war, because wars eventually
>> end.
>> >
>> > Is it so hard for you to admit that there is a
>> possibility that US policy has indeed created the very
>> terrorists we are trying to destroy? And I'm not talking
>> about because they hate our freedom or values, but because
>> we have killed innocents as well...
>> >
>> > gclev
>> >
>> > --- On Mon, 2/23/09, g. crabtree
>> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> From: g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations
>> work
>> >> To: garrettmc at verizon.net, "vision 2020"
>> <vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Sunil Ramalingam"
>> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>> >> Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 7:27 AM
>> >> The quote:
>> >>
>> >> " I imagine most of these acts are
>> >>  consequences of the American Empire willing to
>> commit the
>> >>  same atrocities."
>> >>
>> >> I suppose the question is, the same as who, The
>> Girl
>> >> Scouts? The Red Cross? It seems clear to me that
>> since the
>> >> topic was terrorism and that among the terrorists
>> in
>> >> question we find the taliban and al-qaeda at the
>> top of the
>> >> list, there was no need for wild speculation on my
>> part.
>> >>
>> >> Moving on, "Anyone willing to kill for their
>> agenda is
>> >> sick and should be treated. Perhaps a lobotomy
>> would be the
>> >> cure, rather than killing them outright?"
>> >>
>> >> I guess I have to assume that, considering your
>> moral
>> >> equivalence position that you include US and
>> coalition
>> >> troops in this group along with law enforcement
>> officials
>> >> and anyone else who might be willing to use
>> ultimate
>> >> measures to protect themselves or there loved
>> ones?
>> >>
>> >> There's going to be a dreadful dearth of
>> stimulating
>> >> conversation in your little corner of Hell.
>> >>
>> >> g
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garrett
>> Clevenger"
>> >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
>> >> To: "vision 2020"
>> <vision2020 at moscow.com>;
>> >> "Sunil Ramalingam"
>> >> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>> >> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 10:25 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations
>> work
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Thanks, Sunil. I suppose we all read between
>> the lines
>> >> in our interpretations of the limitation of email
>> >> conversation. Once we get hot-headed, that
>> interpretation
>> >> probably is distorted even more so.
>> >> >
>> >> > Obviously, moral equivalences are not so much
>> based on
>> >> particular nationalities, but on the individuals
>> who act
>> >> immoral.  Some in the US probably are the moral
>> equivalent
>> >> of some members of the taliban or al qaeda.
>> >> >
>> >> > Anyone willing to kill for their agenda is
>> sick and
>> >> should be treated. Perhaps a lobotomy would be the
>> cure,
>> >> rather than killing them outright?
>> >> >
>> >> > gclev
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, Sunil Ramalingam
>> >> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> From: Sunil Ramalingam
>> >> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>> >> >> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Humane
>> interrogations
>> >> work
>> >> >> To: jampot at roadrunner.com,
>> garrettmc at verizon.net,
>> >> "vision 2020"
>> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> >> >> Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 9:35 PM
>> >> >> I don't think Garrett made the claim
>> you
>> >> attribute to
>> >> >> him, and you're speculating wildly in
>> claiming
>> >> he
>> >> >> believes what you write below.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Do you really think that dropping bombs
>> on cities
>> >> has some
>> >> >> moral superiority over
>> 'terrorism?'  Are
>> >> those
>> >> >> victims any less dead?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sunil
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > From: jampot at roadrunner.com
>> >> >> > To: garrettmc at verizon.net;
>> >> vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> >> > Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:29:11
>> -0800
>> >> >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane
>> >> interrogations work
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Take from my response anything you
>> like.
>> >> It's
>> >> >> definitely not that I have no
>> >> >> > argument with your diatribe,
>> it's just
>> >> that I see
>> >> >> little point in trying to
>> >> >> > have a discussion with anyone who
>> actually
>> >> believes
>> >> >> that the USA is the
>> >> >> > moral equivalent of al-qaeda or the
>> taliban.
>> >> If
>> >> >> that's the world you live in
>> >> >> > I feel sorry for you but I really
>> don't
>> >> believe
>> >> >> there is any common ground
>> >> >> > from which to move this dialog
>> forward. As
>> >> for your
>> >> >> infernal living
>> >> >> > arrangements, again my sympathies
>> but I'm
>> >> afraid I
>> >> >> can accept no
>> >> >> > responsibility for where you choose
>> to
>> >> reside.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > g
>> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > From: "Garrett Clevenger"
>> >> >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
>> >> >> > To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>;
>> "g.
>> >> >> crabtree"
>> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> >> >> > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 5:49
>> PM
>> >> >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane
>> >> interrogations work
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > > I'll take it from your
>> snide
>> >> response, g,
>> >> >> that you have no argument
>> >> >> > > against my diatribe.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > You did prove Donovan's
>> point,
>> >> though, that
>> >> >> some poeple just can't be
>> >> >> > > reasoned with, and my point,
>> due to
>> >> this, that
>> >> >> perhaps we are condemned to
>> >> >> > > live in Hell.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > Congratulation's on helping
>> keep the
>> >> ball
>> >> >> rolling...
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > gclev
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, g.
>> crabtree
>> >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >> From: g. crabtree
>> >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
>> Humane
>> >> >> interrogations work
>> >> >> > >> To: garrettmc at verizon.net,
>> >> >> vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> >> > >> Date: Sunday, February 22,
>> 2009,
>> >> 12:25 PM
>> >> >> > >> "I imagine most of
>> these acts
>> >> are
>> >> >> consequences of the
>> >> >> > >> American Empire willing to
>> commit
>> >> the same
>> >> >> atrocities."
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >> I'm thinking not so
>> much a book
>> >> as a tool
>> >> >> catalog.
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >> As the Ham-ster would say
>> "nuff
>> >> >> said."
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >> g
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >> ----- Original Message
>> ----- From:
>> >> >> "Garrett
>> >> >> > >> Clevenger"
>> >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
>> >> >> > >> To:
>> <vision2020 at moscow.com>;
>> >> "g.
>> >> >> crabtree"
>> >> >> > >>
>> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> >> >> > >> Sent: Saturday, February
>> 21, 2009
>> >> 7:53 PM
>> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
>> Humane
>> >> >> interrogations work
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >> > I don't condone
>> the violent
>> >> acts you
>> >> >> mention,
>> >> >> > >> either, whether committed
>> by suicide
>> >> bombers,
>> >> >> alleged
>> >> >> > >> hijackers, or the powers
>> that be
>> >> that distort
>> >> >> truth for
>> >> >> > >> their own agenda. I imagine
>> most of
>> >> these
>> >> >> acts are
>> >> >> > >> consequences of the
>> American Empire
>> >> willing
>> >> >> to commit the
>> >> >> > >> same atrocities.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > There may be some
>> imagined
>> >> slights, but
>> >> >> there are also
>> >> >> > >> some very real slights.
>> History is
>> >> replete
>> >> >> with examples of
>> >> >> > >> US policy directly
>> responsible for
>> >> killing
>> >> >> innocents. If
>> >> >> > >> you're willing to
>> retaliate for
>> >> feeling
>> >> >> slighted, why
>> >> >> > >> wouldn't your supposed
>> enemies,
>> >> >> who've probably
>> >> >> > >> witnessed more bloodshed
>> than
>> >> hopefully
>> >> >> we'll ever see,
>> >> >> > >> want vengeance, too?
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > You're probably
>> aware of
>> >> the US
>> >> >> financial and
>> >> >> > >> military support of Saddam
>> Hussein
>> >> during the
>> >> >> 80's. The
>> >> >> > >> US backed Iraq in their war
>> against
>> >> Iran,
>> >> >> where a million or
>> >> >> > >> so people were killed. The
>> US also
>> >> knew
>> >> >> Saddam was gassing
>> >> >> > >> the Kurds, where, guess
>> what,
>> >> innocent women,
>> >> >> children and
>> >> >> > >> men died of chemical
>> weapons. But
>> >> apparently,
>> >> >> the US
>> >> >> > >> condoned Saddam's
>> actions.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > The Iranians suffered
>> under the
>> >> Shaw, a
>> >> >> dictator
>> >> >> > >> propped up by the US. The
>> Saudis,
>> >> too, suffer
>> >> >> under the
>> >> >> > >> Sauds, who the US is
>> willing to
>> >> support to
>> >> >> insure access to
>> >> >> > >> oil, and military bases.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > As for Osama, the CIA
>> trained
>> >> and paid
>> >> >> him and his
>> >> >> > >> muhjadeen during the Afghan
>> war
>> >> against the
>> >> >> Soviets. So the
>> >> >> > >> US is implicated in the
>> deaths they
>> >> caused
>> >> >> during that war,
>> >> >> > >> as well.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > Those are only a few
>> of the
>> >> reasons some
>> >> >> people hate
>> >> >> > >> the US and are trying to
>> bring it
>> >> down, to
>> >> >> hold its citizens
>> >> >> > >> accountable, to make us pay
>> with
>> >> similar
>> >> >> heartache. It was
>> >> >> > >> only a matter of time
>> before all
>> >> that pent up
>> >> >> anger would
>> >> >> > >> make its way to the US,
>> >> unfortunately.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > It seems unfair of you
>> to be
>> >> upset over
>> >> >> the deaths of
>> >> >> > >> Americans, but not of other
>> people
>> >> who died
>> >> >> as a result of
>> >> >> > >> US policy. Personally, I
>> think all
>> >> of these
>> >> >> deaths are a
>> >> >> > >> travesty.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > Nothing exist inside a
>> vacuum.
>> >> Every
>> >> >> bomb has a boom.
>> >> >> > >> Every person who is
>> tortured brings
>> >> us closer
>> >> >> to our doom.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > All our values will
>> not save
>> >> us. All our
>> >> >> wealth is
>> >> >> > >> valueless when we become
>> like our
>> >> enemy and
>> >> >> sell our souls
>> >> >> > >> to oppress.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > We live in a freer
>> society than
>> >> where
>> >> >> the alleged
>> >> >> > >> terrorist dwell. We have
>> access to
>> >> more info,
>> >> >> and the
>> >> >> > >> ability to dissent. These
>> other folk
>> >> have
>> >> >> seen, and are
>> >> >> > >> taught, how US policy is
>> >> hypocritical and
>> >> >> leads to their
>> >> >> > >> becoming second class
>> citizens. If I
>> >> lived
>> >> >> there and lost a
>> >> >> > >> loved one due to the US,
>> I'd be
>> >> pretty
>> >> >> pissed, too. I
>> >> >> > >> can empathize with their
>> frustration
>> >> at what
>> >> >> seems to be
>> >> >> > >> policy designed to enrich
>> some in
>> >> the US at
>> >> >> the expense of
>> >> >> > >> their well-being. I'm
>> actually
>> >> surprised
>> >> >> their isn't
>> >> >> > >> more retaliation, but maybe
>> >> that's due to
>> >> >> there being
>> >> >> > >> more saner heads than we
>> know, or
>> >> maybe due
>> >> >> to increased
>> >> >> > >> security.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > These people's
>> view of
>> >> history,
>> >> >> whether accurate
>> >> >> > >> or not, becomes part of
>> their
>> >> psyche. I can
>> >> >> imagine how that
>> >> >> > >> shapes their behavior and
>> view of
>> >> the US.
>> >> >> Since they live in
>> >> >> > >> a more repressive regime,
>> it's a
>> >> lot
>> >> >> harder for them to
>> >> >> > >> break the cycle of hatred
>> they have
>> >> towards
>> >> >> us. Since they
>> >> >> > >> aren't as comfortable,
>> it's
>> >> probably
>> >> >> a lot harder
>> >> >> > >> for them to keep their
>> cool. Those
>> >> that are
>> >> >> more tolerant
>> >> >> > >> are probably ostracized.
>> The ones
>> >> who
>> >> >> retaliate against us
>> >> >> > >> are revered. Thus, natural
>> selection
>> >> leads to
>> >> >> violence
>> >> >> > >> against the US, and
>> themselves.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > I imagine there are
>> people over
>> >> there
>> >> >> like you who
>> >> >> > >> rally others to act
>> violent. They
>> >> probably
>> >> >> say the same
>> >> >> > >> thing you do, and so people
>> are
>> >> enlisted into
>> >> >> what means
>> >> >> > >> they have of retaliation.
>> If China
>> >> were
>> >> >> taking over our
>> >> >> > >> country with military might
>> instead
>> >> of
>> >> >> financially, perhaps
>> >> >> > >> we'd have more freedom
>> fighters
>> >> willing
>> >> >> to kill and die
>> >> >> > >> to protect our homeland,
>> and
>> >> we'd have a
>> >> >> better
>> >> >> > >> understanding of why some
>> are
>> >> willing to make
>> >> >> the ultimate
>> >> >> > >> sacrifice in what they deem
>> to be
>> >> defense of
>> >> >> their country.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > It's only natural
>> to want
>> >> to protect
>> >> >> what you
>> >> >> > >> love. It's natural to
>> want to
>> >> retaliate.
>> >> >> > >> > It makes perfect sense
>> to me
>> >> that
>> >> >> violence begets
>> >> >> > >> violence. We send our
>> soldiers
>> >> there, who
>> >> >> bomb and kill
>> >> >> > >> innocent people, which then
>> leads to
>> >> pissed
>> >> >> off people who
>> >> >> > >> want to bomb us back. But
>> that
>> >> doesn't it
>> >> >> make it right,
>> >> >> > >> or in our best interest. It
>> just
>> >> makes it
>> >> >> look like
>> >> >> > >> we're barbarians.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > The war of terror the
>> US is
>> >> engaged in
>> >> >> only seems to
>> >> >> > >> promote further violence,
>> which
>> >> means the war
>> >> >> of terror
>> >> >> > >> needs more money and troops
>> to fight
>> >> that
>> >> >> violence. It's
>> >> >> > >> absurd to think we can keep
>> killing,
>> >> >> torturing and bombing
>> >> >> > >> our way out of this mess,
>> especially
>> >> >> considering there is
>> >> >> > >> historical justification
>> for people
>> >> to be mad
>> >> >> at us for us
>> >> >> > >> letting our government
>> commit
>> >> violence.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > By letting them use
>> our tax
>> >> dollars,
>> >> >> like it or not,
>> >> >> > >> we are guilty of killing
>> people, and
>> >> thus,
>> >> >> there really are
>> >> >> > >> no innocent people, unless
>> you are
>> >> protesting
>> >> >> and not paying
>> >> >> > >> taxes. Since we are freer,
>> we're
>> >> actually
>> >> >> more guilty
>> >> >> > >> than those in more
>> repressive
>> >> regimes who
>> >> >> have no means of
>> >> >> > >> deposing of their
>> government. We do
>> >> not have
>> >> >> to be pawns in
>> >> >> > >> the US empire. We do not
>> have to let
>> >> them
>> >> >> engage our
>> >> >> > >> military in foreign
>> excursions that
>> >> quite
>> >> >> obviously are
>> >> >> > >> mostly intended to secure
>> oil
>> >> reserves.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > We've spent
>> hundreds of
>> >> billions of
>> >> >> dollars, lost
>> >> >> > >> more Americans than who
>> died during
>> >> the 911
>> >> >> strikes, and
>> >> >> > >> killed many, many tens of
>> thousands
>> >> of
>> >> >> innocent people in
>> >> >> > >> our desire for vengeance.
>> For what?
>> >> More
>> >> >> hatred towards us,
>> >> >> > >> more loss of lives, and
>> more
>> >> indebtedness to
>> >> >> fund this
>> >> >> > >> folly.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > I'm able to
>> condemn all
>> >> these acts
>> >> >> of violence as
>> >> >> > >> the same evil they are:
>> willing to
>> >> kill for
>> >> >> > >> self-righteousness.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > Admittedly, at this
>> point,
>> >> there is no
>> >> >> easy solution.
>> >> >> > >> Considering we have a hard
>> time
>> >> treating our
>> >> >> own with
>> >> >> > >> respect amongst our
>> different
>> >> viewpoints,
>> >> >> perhaps we're
>> >> >> > >> condemned to live in this
>> hell. We
>> >> all are
>> >> >> animals
>> >> >> > >> essentially controlled by
>> our
>> >> emotions. Our
>> >> >> higher being is
>> >> >> > >> smothered by those who want
>> to lash
>> >> out. We
>> >> >> all have these
>> >> >> > >> feelings, but we all can be
>> redeemed
>> >> if
>> >> >> we're courageous
>> >> >> > >> enough to stand up to the
>> powers
>> >> that be and
>> >> >> say,
>> >> >> > >> "Enough!"
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > For starters though,
>> we need to
>> >> reign in
>> >> >> the American
>> >> >> > >> empire. We need to hold
>> Israel
>> >> accountable
>> >> >> for it's
>> >> >> > >> double standards against
>> the
>> >> Palestinians. We
>> >> >> need to stop
>> >> >> > >> supporting repressive
>> regimes. We
>> >> need to
>> >> >> have compassionate
>> >> >> > >> policy that treats all
>> Earthlings
>> >> with
>> >> >> respect. We need to
>> >> >> > >> take the higher ground and
>> say,
>> >> >> "Sorry."
>> >> >> > >> Reconciliation may sound
>> cheesy, but
>> >> it goes
>> >> >> a long way in
>> >> >> > >> leading to forgiveness for
>> our
>> >> trespasses.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > The other alternative
>> is to
>> >> keep digging
>> >> >> ourselves in
>> >> >> > >> this hole of hatred, which
>> will lead
>> >> to
>> >> >> further acts that
>> >> >> > >> we'll feel we'll
>> need to
>> >> retaliate
>> >> >> against, ad
>> >> >> > >> nauseam.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > Corrosive cynicism
>> warmongers
>> >> display
>> >> >> certainly
>> >> >> > >> isn't the answer.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > Sorry for the book.
>> This
>> >> definitely
>> >> >> became longer than
>> >> >> > >> intended...
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > Peace,
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > gclev
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > --- On Sat, 2/21/09,
>> g.
>> >> crabtree
>> >> >> > >>
>> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> >> From: g. crabtree
>> >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> >> >> > >> >> Subject: Re:
>> [Vision2020]
>> >> Humane
>> >> >> interrogations
>> >> >> > >> work
>> >> >> > >> >> To:
>> garrettmc at verizon.net,
>> >> >> vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> >> > >> >> Date: Saturday,
>> February
>> >> 21, 2009,
>> >> >> 3:21 PM
>> >> >> > >> >> "Let's
>> assume for
>> >> a moment
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> > >> terrorists are not
>> >> >> > >> >> cockroaches, but
>> humans who
>> >> like you
>> >> >> and I have
>> >> >> > >> the same
>> >> >> > >> >> emotions of
>> bitterness,
>> >> anger and
>> >> >> desire to
>> >> >> > >> retaliate."
>> >> >> > >> >>
>> >> >> > >> >> Retaliate for
>> what? Sorry,
>> >> but I
>> >> >> can't even
>> >> >> > >> begin to
>> >> >> > >> >> imagine flying
>> jumbo jets
>> >> into
>> >> >> buildings full of
>> >> >> > >> innocents
>> >> >> > >> >> or strapping on a
>> bomb and
>> >> going out
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> > >> deliberately
>> >> >> > >> >> killing women and
>> children
>> >> most of
>> >> >> whom are my own
>> >> >> > >> >> countrymen.
>> >> >> > >> >>
>> >> >> > >> >> "Why do you
>> think
>> >> these people
>> >> >> would commit
>> >> >> > >> such
>> >> >> > >> >> dastardly deeds,
>> willing to
>> >> kill
>> >> >> other people?
>> >> >> > >> What
>> >> >> > >> >> specifics would
>> drive these
>> >> people
>> >> >> to act
>> >> >> > >> so?"
>> >> >> > >> >>
>> >> >> > >> >> According to Osama
>> >> Bin-Laden, the
>> >> >> justification to
>> >> >> > >> murder
>> >> >> > >> >> nearly 3000
>> innocent men,
>> >> women, and
>> >> >> children was
>> >> >> > >> that after
>> >> >> > >> >> the first gulf war
>> we were
>> >> not quick
>> >> >> enough in
>> >> >> > >> removing all
>> >> >> > >> >> of our troops from
>> Saudi
>> >> Arabia to
>> >> >> suit his
>> >> >> > >> tastes. Never
>> >> >> > >> >> mind that the
>> Saudi
>> >> government had
>> >> >> made no request
>> >> >> > >> for us to
>> >> >> > >> >> speed up the rate
>> at which
>> >> our
>> >> >> forces were to pull
>> >> >> > >> out. To
>> >> >> > >> >> the contrary, they
>> were
>> >> rather
>> >> >> pleased to have us
>> >> >> > >> in country
>> >> >> > >> >> in the short term.
>> >> >> > >> >>
>> >> >> > >> >> Also, he was
>> miffed with
>> >> our support
>> >> >> for Israel,
>> >> >> > >> totally
>> >> >> > >> >> ignoring the fact
>> that
>> >> along with
>> >> >> the aid we send
>> >> >> > >> to that
>> >> >> > >> >> country, we also
>> spend
>> >> billions in
>> >> >> aid to Syria,
>> >> >> > >> Jordan,
>> >> >> > >> >> Egypt, Lebanon,
>> >> Afghanistan, and
>> >> >> Saudi Arabia.
>> >> >> > >> >>
>> >> >> > >> >> As you can see, I
>> am rather
>> >> at a
>> >> >> loss. Please feel
>> >> >> > >> free to
>> >> >> > >> >> jump in and
>> enlighten me as
>> >> to why
>> >> >> we were so
>> >> >> > >> richly
>> >> >> > >> >> deserving of
>> radical muslim
>> >> hatred
>> >> >> and how the
>> >> >> > >> losses we
>> >> >> > >> >> sustained on 9/11
>> could be
>> >> justified
>> >> >> as simple pay
>> >> >> > >> back for
>> >> >> > >> >> our misdeeds. What
>> is it
>> >> that you
>> >> >> imagine we might
>> >> >> > >> do that
>> >> >> > >> >> would sooth these
>> peoples
>> >> imagined
>> >> >> slights?
>> >> >> > >> >>
>> >> >> > >> >> g
>> >> >> > >> >>
>> >> >> > >> >> ----- Original
>> Message
>> >> ----- From:
>> >> >> "Garrett
>> >> >> > >> Clevenger"
>> >> >> > >> >>
>> >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
>> >> >> > >> >> To:
>> >> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> >> >> > >> >> Sent: Saturday,
>> February
>> >> 21, 2009
>> >> >> 11:11 AM
>> >> >> > >> >> Subject:
>> [Vision2020]
>> >> Humane
>> >> >> interrogations work
>> >> >> > >> >>
>> >> >> > >> >>
>> >> >> > >> >> > g,
>> >> >> > >> >> >
>> >> >> > >> >> > Let's
>> assume for a
>> >> moment
>> >> >> that terrorists
>> >> >> > >> are not
>> >> >> > >> >> cockroaches, but
>> humans who
>> >> like you
>> >> >> and I have
>> >> >> > >> the same
>> >> >> > >> >> emotions of
>> bitterness,
>> >> anger and
>> >> >> desire to
>> >> >> > >> retaliate.
>> >> >> > >> >> >
>> >> >> > >> >> > Why do you
>> think these
>> >> people
>> >> >> would commit
>> >> >> > >> such
>> >> >> > >> >> dastardly deeds,
>> willing to
>> >> kill
>> >> >> other people?
>> >> >> > >> What
>> >> >> > >> >> specifics would
>> drive these
>> >> people
>> >> >> to act so?
>> >> >> > >> >> >
>> >> >> > >> >> > I'm
>> asking to see
>> >> if we
>> >> >> could reason as
>> >> >> > >> to why we
>> >> >> > >> >> live in a world
>> seemingly
>> >> filled
>> >> >> with violence due
>> >> >> > >> to humans
>> >> >> > >> >> striking fellow
>> humans, so
>> >> as to
>> >> >> possibly
>> >> >> > >> extricate
>> >> >> > >> >> ourselves from
>> this deadly
>> >> spiral...
>> >> >> > >> >> >
>> >> >> > >> >> > gclev
>> >> >> > >> >> >
>> >> >> > >> >> >
>> >> >> > >> >>
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> =======================================================
>> >> >> > >> >> > List services
>> made
>> >> available by
>> >> >> First Step
>> >> >> > >> Internet,
>> >> >> > >> >> > serving the
>> >> communities of the
>> >> >> Palouse since
>> >> >> > >> 1994.
>> >> >> > >> >> >
>> >> >> http://www.fsr.net
>> >> >> > >> >>
>> >> >> > >> >> >
>> >> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> >> > >> >> >
>> >> >> > >> >>
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> =======================================================
>> >> >> > >> >> >
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> =======================================================
>> >> >> >  List services made available by
>> First Step
>> >> Internet,
>> >> >> >  serving the communities of the
>> Palouse since
>> >> 1994.
>> >> >> >                http://www.fsr.net
>> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> =======================================================
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> =======================================================
>> >> > List services made available by First Step
>> Internet,
>> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since
>> 1994.
>> >> >               http://www.fsr.net
>> >>
>> >> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> >
>> >>
>> =======================================================
>> >> >
>> >
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>               http://www.fsr.net
>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 - Release Date: 2/23/2009 
> 7:17 AM
>