[Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
lfalen
lfalen at turbonet.com
Mon Sep 22 10:44:15 PDT 2008
One small correction. Cally was a lieutenant, not that it matters.
Roger
-----Original message-----
From: joekc at roadrunner.com
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:32:37 -0700
To: "g. crabtree" jampot at roadrunner.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> Gary (if I may),
>
> I'm sorry for suggesting that you don't know anything about American history. It was a sarcastic
> comment, a failed attempt at humor: "If you think that Nixon resigned because of a botched
> burglary, then ..."
>
> Nonetheless, Liddy was not a "foot soldier." He was a chief operative. Maybe not a general (Nixon)
> or a lieutenant (Dean) but not a private, more like a sergeant, like William Cally. Certainly others
> were perhaps more responsible, but weren't Cally and Liddy also responsible for their actions?
>
> Lastly, I'm not trying to suggest that McCain should "disassociate himself from the man." I believe
> in redemption. I can wrap my head around the idea that Liddy is reformed. I'm not asking McCain
> to distance himself from Liddy (though were I running, I'd want to make it clear that cheating is
> not the American way).
>
> You've forgotten about the initial thread. The point is that Republican's have been suggesting
> that the Obama-Ayers connection is an issue. If you google "Obama Ayers controversy" you get:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama–Ayers_controversy
>
> But if you google "McCain Liddy controversy" there is no similar wikipedia listing. Or any listing
> that deals with this "controversy" since it is not a controversy. That was the initial point of the
> post, namely. that if the former is a controversy, then so should be the latter.
>
> I'm happy to say that McCain-and-Liddy is fine (though I find it odd that someone who is running
> for the presidency of the US doesn't distance himself from someone who has tried to circumvent
> the democratic process). But then what is all this hay about Obama-and-Ayers?
>
> To summarize:
> 1. Ayers is bad and Liddy is bad. (I'm not suggesting that Ayers is good.)
> 2. Liddy is worse than Ayers (one blew up buildings; the other was part of a team that
> succeeded in winning a presidential election, in part, by cheating).
> 3. Neither is an issue in the recent election, for guilt by association is a fallacy.
> 4. If Ayers is an issue (and Republicans have made it an issue), then Liddy is a bigger issue.
>
> All the best, Joe
>
> ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > I know a bit about American history and Watergate in particular. Are you
> > trying to tell me that Watergate was all about G. Gordon Liddy? Liddy was a
> > minor player in the Watergate scandal, a foot soldier who ended up bearing
> > the brunt of the punishment for people above him. John Dean, A Watergate
> > principal who has been held up on this forum as a man whose opinion is
> > worthy of respectful consideration, had far more to do with Watergate and
> > it's subsequent cover up then Liddy ever did. Liddy readily admitted that
> > he did the crime, he did the time, he paid his debt to society and has gone
> > on to lead a decent life. That McCain should have to move heaven and earth
> > to disassociate himself from the man seems unreasonable.
> >
> > g
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <joekc at roadrunner.com>
> > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:38 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> >
> >
> > > You are twisting the argument. No one is sticking up for Ayers. The point
> > > is that if Ayers matters
> > > to Obama's reputation, Liddy should matter to McCain's. Another point is
> > > that, relatively speaking,
> > > Ayers is not worse than Liddy and Liddy is not better than Ayers. I think
> > > Liddy is far worse.
> > >
> > > Watergate revealed a much deeper threat to American democracy. The simple
> > > fact is that Nixon
> > > cheated in a broad number of ways. Cheated in winning the presidential
> > > election. Look up "Watergate," do a bit of research, and learn something
> > > about American history. Are you trying to
> > > tell me that that Nixon resigned the presidency merely because of an
> > > unsuccessful burglary?
> > >
> > > What does democracy stand for if not for fair elections for the presidency
> > > of the US, where the
> > > people may be certain that the choice is the product of their will and not
> > > the will of a select few?
> > > Do you think that Barry Bonds deserves the home run king crown if it turns
> > > out that he took
> > > steroids? No. He cheated. At the very least, Nixon cheated in his second
> > > presidential bid, cheated
> > > in an election for the president of the US. He won unfairly and Liddy
> > > helped.
> > >
> > > And Ayers did not get off scot free. The charges were dropped. Why?
> > > Prosecutorial misconduct.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Joe Campbell
> > >
> > > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > >> I guess since the argument being put forward is that Ayers should be
> > >> given a
> > >> bye because he didn't really cause any harm, the same slack needs to be
> > >> granted to Mr. Liddy. After all, the Watergate break in was unsuccessful
> > >> and
> > >> the burglars (a fairly incompetent bunch) were all arrested. So, since no
> > >> presidential campaign was hijacked and no vote was taken out of the hands
> > >> of
> > >> the people it seems to me that you are holding G.Gordon to a much higher
> > >> standard. At the very least Ayers committed an act of gross vandalism and
> > >> reckless endangerment and got off Scot free. Liddy was complicit in a
> > >> failed
> > >> break in and did five and a half years. He did the crime and he did the
> > >> time. Throwing in some silly disclaimer whenever his name comes up seems
> > >> as
> > >> daft and unnecessary as saying "setting off bombs designed to maximize
> > >> injury and death in public places is a very, very bad thing.
> > >>
> > >> g
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: <joekc at roadrunner.com>
> > >> To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:20 AM
> > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > What would be worse: a terrorist from another land blowing up some
> > >> > buildings or a terrorist from
> > >> > another land hijacking a presidential campaign and ensuring that one
> > >> > candidate wins over
> > >> > another? I think that hijacking a presidential campaign is about the
> > >> > worst
> > >> > thing that anyone can
> > >> > do in a democracy. I'm a bit shocked that not everyone sees it this
> > >> > way.
> > >> > Like Donovan I'm no fan
> > >> > of Ayers but to post anything on this topic without condemning Liddy
> > >> > seems
> > >> > to be an insult to our
> > >> > form of government. Why not at least throw in a "Oh, by the way taking
> > >> > the
> > >> > vote for president out
> > >> > of the people and putting it into the hands of a few is a very, very
> > >> > bad
> > >> > thing."
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Joe Campbell
> > >> >
> > >> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > >> >> Read what I wrote. I did not claim that he killed anyone. I said that
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> act of setting off explosives wrapped in nails in public places is
> > >> >> akin
> > >> >> to attempted murder. If I light your apartment building on fire and,
> > >> >> by
> > >> >> the grace of God, no one is injured or killed am I mearly guilty of
> > >> >> failure to obtain a permit for an open burn?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> g
> > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> >> From: Donovan Arnold
> > >> >> To: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 ; g. crabtree
> > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 11:46 PM
> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Gary,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I don't condone the actions of Ayers. But he never killed
> > >> >> anyone.
> > >> >> To say he did is an incorrect statement. If you can demonstrate to me
> > >> >> (an
> > >> >> online article etc.) he killed someone, I will accept your statement
> > >> >> as
> > >> >> fact. Otherwise, I say your judgment and understanding on this matter
> > >> >> is
> > >> >> deeply in question.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Best Regards,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Donovan
> > >> >>
> > >> >> --- On Wed, 9/17/08, g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > >> >> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> From: g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> > >> >> To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, "Andreas Schou"
> > >> >> <ophite at gmail.com>, "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >> >> Date: Wednesday, September 17, 2008, 5:30 AM
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> "Are you insinuating that Bill Ayers tried to kill people?"
> > >> >>
> > >> >> No, I am not insinuating I am saying it flat out. Placing
> > >> >> anti
> > >> >> personnel bombs in public places is attempted murder. When the vermin
> > >> >> in
> > >> >> Baghdad or Sader City or Fallujah set of IED's they don't know the
> > >> >> names
> > >> >> of those they are attempting to murder and maim. Is it your contention
> > >> >> that they are not trying to kill people?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> g
> > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> >> From: Donovan Arnold
> > >> >> To: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 ; g. crabtree
> > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 1:42 AM
> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> "No small accomplishment. Oh yeah, he has never
> > >> >> attempted to slaughter soldiers and police via the cowardly practice
> > >> >> of
> > >> >> hiding and detonating explosives wrapped in nails."
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Are you insinuating that Bill Ayers tried to kill
> > >> >> people? I am no fan of Ayers. But I think you are off base saying he
> > >> >> killed, or even attempted to kill people. If you think this, please
> > >> >> provide us with the names of people Ayers attempted to kill, or who he
> > >> >> killed.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> The people that McCain worked for between 1979 and
> > >> >> 1992
> > >> >> harmed more people than Ayers.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Best Regards,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Donovan
> > >> >>
> > >> >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, g. crabtree
> > >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> From: g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack
> > >> >> Obama
> > >> >> To: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>,
> > >> >> "vision2020"
> > >> >> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >> >> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 7:24 PM
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> So what's your problem with the G-Man? The guy did his time in
> > >> >> anything
> > >> >> but
> > >> >> country club conditions until your hero, James Earl Carter, commuted
> > >> >> his
> > >> >> sentence. He never ratted out his associates and he's managed to
> > >> >> support
> > >> >> himself and his family as an ex-con. No small accomplishment. Oh yeah,
> > >> >> he
> > >> >> has never attempted to slaughter soldiers and police via the cowardly
> > >> >> practice of hiding and detonating explosives wrapped in nails. All
> > >> >> things
> > >> >> considered, I know that I would much rather associate with a man who
> > >> >> served
> > >> >> his time and was released from prison than an unrepentant attempted
> > >> >> murderer
> > >> >> whose only regret is that he couldn't cause more carnage and mayhem.
> > >> >> Of
> > >> >> course that's just me.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> g
> > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> >> From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
> > >> >> To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 6:32 PM
> > >> >> Subject: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > They both knew each other. They were both appointed to co-chair an
> > >> >> > education panel by Mayor Daley, and the prior state Senator from
> > >> >> > Obama's seat introduced him at Bill Ayers' house. No large,
> > >> >> ongoing
> > >> >> > connection. But here's the thing:
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Why isn't John McCain's friendship with G. Gordon Liddy a campaign
> > >> >> > issue? Is there any defensible reason for treating Liddy like a
> > >> >> > rehabilitated member of the community, rather than as a threat to
> > >> >> > the
> > >> >> > Republic? If so, why?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > -- ACS
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > =======================================================
> > >> >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > >> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > >> >> > http://www.fsr.net
> > >> >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> >> > =======================================================
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> =======================================================
> > >> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > >> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > >> >> http://www.fsr.net
> > >> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> >> =======================================================
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> =======================================================
> > >> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > >> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > >> >> http://www.fsr.net
> > >> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> >> =======================================================
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> > =======================================================
> > >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > >> > http://www.fsr.net
> > >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> > =======================================================
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
More information about the Vision2020
mailing list