[Vision2020] Citing Primary Sources via Secondary Sources

[joekc at roadrunner.com]

Jeff,

Like I said before, these kinds of personal fights aren't appropriate in a public forum. Not that
I haven't similarly sinned before but I have no desire to do so any longer. Folks don't care that 
you dislike me and shouldn't be subjected our quarrels.

It is clear enough from the post that the Law School Honor Code applies to STUDENTS functioning
in that capacity. Andreas is not a student. That was my first and primary point and I should have
made the point more clearly and left it at that. Sorry for doing otherwise and for trying to make
my point with humor.

Why am I corresponding with you given what I've said in the past? Besides my more obvious 
weaknesses I simply hate bullies. You are an emeritus professor. Andreas is a law student. It is
not only wrong but unconscionable for you to threaten him in the way that you have done in a
public forum. You are taking advantage of your superior status to win what appears to be a 
political debate and although others won't say anything to you because they don't want to 
experience your hateful wrath, I have nothing to loose on that score, so I decided to step in.

You are way out of bounds here. You need to stop and should issue an apology or your own 
reputation is bound to suffer. I'd be interested in seeing if there is one other academic who
agrees with you. I know that there is at least one other who has taken my side: Nick Gier. If you
can find another academic who thinks that your threat to Andreas is warranted, I'd like to know.

--
Joe Campbell

---- Jeff Harkins <jeffh at moscow.com> wrote: 
> Your post is so convoluted, a response would be pointless.
> 
> And, why are you breaking your boycott of not corresponding with me.
> 
>   At 07:10 AM 9/18/2008, you wrote:
> >Is Vision 2020 a UI research forum? Is Andreas our student -- your 
> >student, since you are the one
> >bringing up the charges? Was his post an assignment that we/you gave him?
> >
> >This is about as inappropriate of a charge as I can imagine.
> >
> >What does the Law School Honor Code say about handing in work with 
> >someone else's name on it?
> >Wait a minute that has to be plagiarism, too! So anonymous posters 
> >can/should be threatened
> >too. That's right, we don't know who they are. Or do we? I am 
> >shocked that a man like you, so
> >concerned about the integrity of our posts, hasn't brought this 
> >point up. Or maybe I'm not!
> >
> >--
> >Joe Campbell
> >
> >---- Jeff Harkins <jeffh at moscow.com> wrote:
> > > Sorry Nick,
> > >
> > > Your little trick to bring my offlist reply to you back on to the viz
> > > was anticipated - and reveals a great deal about your character. I
> > > know, it was an oversight, right?
> > >
> > > If you can't find the time to review the material that has already
> > > been posted, I am not going to spoon feed it to you.
> > >
> > > All the issues are fully presented; all materials linked to my
> > > position provided.
> > >
> > > All comments are available.
> > >
> > > Thanks, but I have provided full back up of my position.
> > >
> > > Oh - no more offlist correspondence with you.
> > >
> > > You apparently don't really understand plagiarism - here is how it is
> > > defined in the Law School Honor Code:
> > >
> > > >Plagiarism. No student shall claim as his or her own original work
> > > >the research, ideas or
> > > >writing of another, or copy in whole or in part or in effect from
> > > >the work of another, without
> > > >clearly identifying it as the work of another. Paraphrasing without
> > > >acknowledgement of
> > > >authorship is a form of plagiarism. Paraphrasing is the close
> > > >restatement of another's idea or
> > > >using approximately the language of the original. [Section IIB, page 64]
> > >
> > > Thus, your use of secondary sources in your writings, which are
> > > by-products of primary sources, would require citations.  Do you
> > > provide citations for your use of secondary sources?
> > >
> > > Mr. Shoue paraphased, but provided no citations whatsoever.
> > >
> > > I think we are done.
> > >
> > > Bye.
> > >
> > > At 12:02 PM 9/17/2008, you wrote:
> > > >Hi Jeff,
> > > >
> > > >I'm bringing this back on the Vision because of the seriousness of
> > > >the charges you made against Andreas.
> > > >
> > > >You have ducked the question I posed to you: what is the difference
> > > >between what I did in my Gandhi research and what Andreas did?  I
> > > >don't care to go through the details of what you debated.  That's
> > > >simply not necessary. I just want you to do tell me, Andreas, and
> > > >others on this list in concise terms what the difference is.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >Let me clarify one important thing.  You somehow have the notion
> > > >that reviewers of my Gandhi work checked it for plagiarism. No such
> > > >thing ever happened.  As I stated in my first post, Gandhi scholars
> > > >quote the primary sources through secondary sources all the time.
> > > >
> > > >This is a serious charge that you have leveled.  You have to back it
> > > >up or apologize big time.
> > > >
> > > >Nick
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >---- Jeff Harkins <jeffh at moscow.com> wrote:
> > > > > I am going offlist again.
> > > > >
> > > > > Schou is the only one who can know what he did and what his intent
> > > > > was.  I can say that if he had submitted his original post to me as
> > > > > written (in an academic setting) I would have moved forward with
> > > > > charges of plagiarism.
> > > > >
> > > > > Since you haven't had time to go through the full dialogue, we
> > > > > probably won't get anywhere by focusing on details.
> > > > >
> > > > > As I have pointed out numerous times, this is a problem he created,
> > > > > not me.  Read the details, get back to me and we can chat offlist.
> > > > > Pay particular attention to the material prepared by Alperin-Sheriff
> > > > > and the Terms of Use of the McClatchy site (which he admits he
> > > > > used).  He doesn't seem to appreciate how reckless and careless his
> > > > > actions were and how significant the consequences can be (ie, Biden's
> > > > > use of Kinnock's speech).
> > > > >
> > > > > All I have done is point out to him that he needs to approach the Law
> > > > > School Administration and deal with the matter with them. He is
> > > > > subject to the Law School Honor Code.
> > > > >
> > > > > What he chooses to do to resolve this is up to him.  I plan no action
> > > > > on my part.
> > > > >
> > > > > As to a comparison with your work - no, I am not investing time in
> > > > > that comparison.  I trust that the reviewers of your work handle that.
> > > > >
> > > > > At 10:57 AM 9/17/2008, you wrote:
> > > > > >Hi Jeff,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >This is response is no response.  Would you care to distinguish
> > > > between what
> > > > > >Andreas did and what I've done for 18 years in my Gandhi research?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Nick
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >---- Jeff Harkins <jeffh at moscow.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > At 10:27 AM 9/17/2008, you wrote:
> > > > > > > >Greetings:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >"I've not followed the exchange between Andreas and Jeff 
> > in complete
> > > > > > > >detail ..."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That more or less covers my response.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >I'm preparing for a keynote address that I will give on Gandhi's
> > > > > > > >birthday on Oct. 2 at San Diego State University.  When I first
> > > > > > > >started doing my Gandhi research in the early 1990s, it was very
> > > > > > > >difficult to get the primary sources, even through interlibrary
> > > > > > > >loan.  Until I went on sabbatical to India, I relied on secondary
> > > > > > > >sources, especially very fine anthologies of passages arranged by
> > > > > > > >subject and fully documented.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >When I finally got to India, I was able to sit down and check out
> > > > > > > >references and read for context in Gandhi's Collected Works (100
> > > > > > > >volumes!) and the journals Young India and 
> > Harijan.  Very few Gandhi
> > > > > > > >scholars read every page of these huge volumes. That is 
> > why we have
> > > > > > > >bibliographers.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Gandhi kept meticulous records of everything that happened in his
> > > > > > > >ashrams, and most of that does not make for very edifying
> > > > > > > >reading.  The Collected Works have a very good index, so that was
> > > > > > > >very handy to find the passages that I needed for a 
> > particular topic.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >As soon as finish this post, I will go downstairs to my reading
> > > > > > > >couch and re-read the fabulous anthologies that take me 
> > right to the
> > > > > > > >passages that I want to review, and perhaps I'll find 
> > some new good
> > > > > > > >ones.  The Collected Works are now on line, but they are even more
> > > > > > > >clumsy to use than the actual books themselves.  For crucial
> > > > > > > >passages I will double check the original references 
> > again on line.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >I believe this is what Andreas did, and if I'm right, 
> > then I'm just
> > > > > > > >as guilty of plagiarism as he is.  I wouldn't be invited to San
> > > > > > > >Diego if that is what my colleagues think I did.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Nick Gier
> > > > > > > >
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