[Vision2020] Underground: A Poem by Barack Obama

[g. crabtree]

"Do you expect everyone to take care of all relatives, no matter how remote, 
if they happen to have money themselves?"

No, but when a persons net worth well exceeds a million bucks and a few 
hundred will vault your relative (half brother, not all that remote) from 
abject, crushing poverty to a reasonably comfortable life then yeah, I would 
expect him to do a little "taking care." After all, if your situation is 
such that a six hundred dollar rebate means so little as to amount to 
nothing more than some ear bobbles for the little woman why not help out the 
little round headed fella?

I think that this sums up one of the biggest differences between the two 
campaigns. One (sort of) believes that it's responsible for a person to look 
out for himself and his family and the other believes that all burdens 
should be placed on the tax payers and mommy government to be dealt with 
collectively.

g

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
To: "No Weatherman" <no.weatherman at gmail.com>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Underground: A Poem by Barack Obama


No Weatherman wrote:
> Paul,
>
> Respectfully, please show me an attack.
>

Maybe "attack" was too strong of a word.  Your focus seems to be on the
person, not on the policies.  That is what I meant.

> If anything, I have criticized (not attacked) the American press for
> refusing to cover the real Obama but I've been meticulously careful
> not to attack the man in the same manner that some very LOUD,
> dishonest, and outspoken critics of the other ticket have gone catty
> but I have not attacked Obama.
>

You have not been trashing him straight up, that's true.  You've been
(imho) attempting to smear him by association.  That is better than some
of the anti-Palin humor I've seen here and elsewhere.  I'll agree with
you on that.

> I have presented facts. Uncomfortable facts. And I have presented them
> asking those LOUD, dishonest, and outspoken critics of the other
> ticket to respond. So far, the few responses I've had have petered out
> for numerous reasons. One person misrepresents the truth. One person
> changes his story three or four times. Another frames straw men.
> Another gets hysterical. And yet another melted down and vanished.
>
> But in none of this have I attacked Barack Obama, unless, that is, you
> can show me an attack.
>
> That said, you say I have not addressed Obama's issues and I have to
> disagree with you.
>
> For example, I addressed the issue of Obama's need to disassociate
> himself from domestic terrorist Bill Ayers just as he threw Wright and
> Rezko under the bus:
>
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-September/056536.html
>

This is an example of a focus on his associations, not on the issues.
 From what I've seen presented here, it does not appear that Obama is
running to Ayers for advice on how to change the government, or what
policies he should hold.  He knows the guy, and he's worked with him in
committees before, where the committees did not have anything to do with
bombing buildings.

> I addressed Obama's record in Illinois like his garden project:
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-September/056723.html
>

This one sounds like a case of his awarding grant money and the grantee
dropping the ball.

> I addressed the issue of Obama's stance against the first amendment:
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-October/056848.html
>

That article reads like a load of "Islamophobia" and fear-mongering to
me.  It's hard to follow, but he apparently doesn't come down hard on
all Muslims and is willing to exercise his rights if someone libels
him.  He's also willing to prosecute Bush administration officials if it
turns out they broke the law.  He will prosecute those who use voter
intimidation.  Not nearly enough to justify the phrase "Sen. Obama and
his supporters despise free expression,
the bedrock of American self-determinism and hence American democracy"
that was used in the article.


> I addressed the issue of Biden's foreign policy experience:
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-October/056849.html
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-October/057021.html
>

He screwed up on the Hezbollah statement.  But it's better than Palin.
I'm reminded of the lyrics from a song I saw on youtube about Palin:
"Being able to see the moon does not make you an astronaut, you loon".

> I've addressed the issue of Obama's pro-terrorist position:
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-October/057071.html
>

Calling his association with Ayers a "pro-terrorist" position is
disingenuous.

> I've addressed the issue of Obama's campaign contributions:
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-October/057091.html
>

I read about this on another site.  He has shattered records for
fund-raising, and because of the volume his staff has fallen behind on
verifying that the money is coming from US citizens.  Some US citizens
do live overseas, probably in the hundreds of thousands if not
millions.  A couple of people posted that they received calls to verify
their status, weeks after they donated money, but before this "scandal"
broke.

> I addressed the issue of Obama's stance for abortion:
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-October/056999.html
>

You proposed the conundrum of whether or not his parents should have
saved the baby or killed it if his parents had tried to abort him but
failed.  I simply fail to know which direction to go with that.

> I addressed the issue of Obama's confabulation in one of his two memoirs:
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-September/056801.html
>

If you can believe the blogger, then he did in fact exaggerate in his
memoir.  Not too badly, in my opinion, but there it is.

> I raised the issue of Obama's stand on homosexuality, at least from a PUMA 
> POV:
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-September/056760.html
>

I don't have the time to go through each of the items in that article,
but if he's a homophobe (which I'm not granting is true), then that is a
strike against him.

> I addressed the issue of Obama's long lost brother:
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-September/056787.html
> (Sarah Palin's family is fair game, but why hasn't the US press
> uncovered all of Barack's missing siblings?)
>

He has a relative he didn't even know existed until he was 21, and
somehow his being poor should reflect badly on Obama?  Do you expect
everyone to take care of all relatives, no matter how remote, if they
happen to have money themselves?

> So, Paul, I have addressed many of Obama's issues from a completely
> factual perspective but to no avail. I get replies when someone thinks
> they have an answer but when I correct them with the facts they
> disappear until the next time.
>
> But the biggest issue I've addressed is the issue of Barack Obama's
> competence which to me is a much larger issue than the economy or
> national security or abortion, etc. How can a man listen to Jeremiah
> Wright's rants for 20 years and not know he's a racist pig? How can a
> man launch his political career in Bill Ayers' living room and not
> know he's a domestic terrorist? How can a man work side by side with
> Tony Rezko and not know he's a corrupt slumlord? How can a man stump
> for his cus in Kenya and not know he stands for Sharia Law?
>

I really don't care who his pastor is, what his grocer thinks, or
whether or not every person he's ever met is a saint.

> Obama's mental competence, or his duplicity, is the real issue that
> must be addressed — not the other stuff.
>

I have seen him speak, and he undoubtedly an intelligent man.  That's
hard to fake.  Not just run-of-the-mill intelligent, but very
intelligent.  I haven't seen enough evidence here to call him duplicitous.

> But if you're not satisfied with these issues, let's talk about the
> Obama's position on the economy. But first you'll have to convince me
> why you think he's competent.
>
>

I would be happy if this list as a whole would start studying and
debating the issues, the economy among them.  Then maybe I can learn
more about each candidate and where they stand on the issues and have
more than distant associations with which to judge them.

Paul

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