[Vision2020] An Obama Dilemma
No Weatherman
no.weatherman at gmail.com
Sat Oct 4 15:38:21 PDT 2008
"Look, if your point was, Sunil argued as follows:
"Dr. No does not stand behind his words.
"Therefore, his arguments are fallacious."
Exactamundo. Ad hominem fallacy. I believe in order for it to be a
"request," as you put it, the post would have to include a verifiable
request, that is, if words have meaning.
As it stands, it was nothing more than a self-serving opportunity to
name call, which is out of character for Sunil.
On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:08 PM, <joekc at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> Look, if your point was, Sunil argued as follows:
>
> Dr. No does not stand behind his words.
> Therefore, his arguments are fallacious.
>
> Then, yes, that is an adhominem argument. But that is not what I got out of Sunil's post.
> Honestly, the post seemed more like a request than an argument for a conclusion. "Stand
> behind your words if you want me to take you seriously," or something like that. That is not
> a fallacy, or even an argument. It is a mere request.
>
> --
> Joe Campbell
>
> ---- No Weatherman <no.weatherman at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dr. Campbell,
>>
>> The name-calling was not the ad hom. It was immature, but not ad hominem.
>>
>> He predicated his argument on an ad hominem fallacy that I do not
>> stand behind my words but he gave no evidence to support his argument.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/4/08, joekc at roadrunner.com <joekc at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>> > Well, he called you a name but that doesn't make it an ad hominem fallacy. The issue is
>> > whether he used the insult to "support" his conclusion. And since he's just making a point,
>> > not really giving an argument, there is no conclusion. It is more of a request that you stand by your words, as I understand it.
>> >
>> > So, no, it is not an ad hominem fallacy.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Joe Campbell
>> >
>> > ---- No Weatherman <no.weatherman at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Sunil,
>> > >
>> > > What words have I not stood behind, or is this another ad hominem argument?
>> > >
>> > > I call upon Dr. Campbell to decide.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On 10/4/08, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > If Big Windbag wants to persuade others and discuss issues, he should be
>> > > > able to stand behind his words.
>> > > >
>> > > > Sunil
>> > > >
>> > > > ________________________________
>> >
>> > > > From: idahovandal1 at live.com
>> > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > > > Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 10:52:05 -0700
>> >
>> > > >
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Obama Dilemma
>> > > >
>> >
>> > > > If you're really so concerned about persuading voters not to vote for
>> > > > Obama, you're wasting a lot of ammo doing so on a little listserve in a
>> > > > little town in Idaho. Rest assured, it's far more likely that Angelina will
>> > > > leave Brad and the kids, move to Moscow to live with me and support me in
>> > > > the manner to which I'd like to become accustomed, before our state's 4
>> > > > electoral votes go to anyone other than a Republican. Perhaps your efforts
>> > > > would be better spent on a similar forum in a state such as, say, Indiana,
>> > > > which I understand is very much in play. Just a thought. And to shift
>> > > > gears, regarding Thursday's debate, this from Kathleen Parker, no screaming
>> > > > liberal. Let me say for myself, while Ms. Palin may possibly endear herself
>> > > > to Joe Sixpack, she does nothing for Carl HalfaCase...Carl Westberg
>> > > > Jr.............".Well, darnit all, if that dadgum girl (wink, wink) didn't
>> > > > beat the tarnation out of Joe Biden. Maverick Sarah Palin fersure surpassed
>> > > > expectations and said everything under the sun, also. And Biden smiled and
>> > > > smiled.
>> > > > Palin is a populist pro. She hit all the notes that resonate with non-elite
>> > > > Americans: family (Hi Mom and Dad!), "Can I call ya Joe?" personal
>> > > > responsibility, Wall Street greed, children with special needs. Her most
>> > > > effective technique was speaking directly to the American people and letting
>> > > > Joe know that's what she was gonna do, doggonit.
>> > > > Stylistically, she used the language of the people to great effect. And,
>> > > > you know what? If you want to know what the American people care about, you
>> > > > can go to a kid's soccer game on Saturday and ask parents how they feel, and
>> > > > "I'll betcha you're going to hear some fear."
>> > > > I'll have to go to the transcript to figure out what Palin actually said
>> > > > and try to figure out whose facts were right. But there's no question: She
>> > > > won the debate on popularity. She did her homework, studied hard, and
>> > > > delivered with spunk. Still, I had the uneasy feeling throughout that I was
>> > > > witnessing a data dump from a very appealing droid. Even the winks and jaw
>> > > > juts seemed slightly programmed. And the question remains: Is she ready to
>> > > > be president should the need arise?"
>> > > > By Kathleen Parker | October 3, 2008
>> > > >
>> > > > > Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 06:39:09 -1000
>> > > > > From: no.weatherman at gmail.com
>> > > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Obama Dilemma
>> > > > >
>> > > > > "This is really a silly game. Below is just another bad argument. Some
>> > > > > of your opinions are facts and some not and it is doubtful that you
>> > > > > are the best judge about which is which."
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I noted your fallacies and you call it "silly" and "another bad
>> > > > > argument." I wonder what the technical name for that one is.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > "Also, why should I answer your questions if you don't answer mine?
>> > > > > That's not fair."
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I caught you equivocating, or having it both ways, with the word
>> > > > > "fact" and when I called you on it, you ignored my question and
>> > > > > proceeded to ask me a string of loaded questions. If this is not true,
>> > > > > please show me where I'm wrong. Otherwise, don't complain about "fair"
>> > > > > to me.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > "And why are you so upset about this? If you are not either a critic
>> > > > > of Christ Church or affiliated with Christ Church, why would it bother
>> > > > > you that someone thought that you were?"
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I am not the least bit upset, I am not bothered at all, and you cannot
>> > > > > produce any evidence to the contrary. However, I can produce several
>> > > > > posts written by you, Ms. Mix, Ms. Lund, and Mr. Hanson where you four
>> > > > > have been extremely upset and bothered. You are projecting your traits
>> > > > > on me.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > "I must say if you are trying to prove that you're not, you are doing
>> > > > > a very bad job. Not nearly as bad as your case against Obama but still
>> > > > > pretty bad. And it is silly indeed since you could prove your point
>> > > > > easily by using your real name, or meeting me for lunch later today.
>> > > > > I'll treat! Of course, if you can't since you're, say, out of the
>> > > > > country, that would explain a lot!"
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I am in the country and I sincerely appreciate the offer but I'll take
>> > > > > a rain check. Now, what fallacy, if any, are you committing when you
>> > > > > infer a false conclusion from my answer?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > "Anyway, if you won't use your name or meet me for lunch, I'll have to
>> > > > > go back to trying to ignore you. Not that I'm very good at it but I'll
>> > > > > try to be better!"
>> > > > >
>> > > > > You're very good at misquoting me and misrepresenting me, and you're
>> > > > > even better at evading responsibility for your dishonest statements.
>> > > > > But I'm struggling with all those posts that you wrote insisting that
>> > > > > you never read a word I wrote, yet, now, suddenly and miraculously,
>> > > > > you have the uncanny ability as a trained logician to describe the
>> > > > > previously and until-now ignored posts as full of "fallacy after
>> > > > > fallacy."
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Rather than ignoring me, I would appreciate it if you actually tried
>> > > > > to engage me — or better yet, engage my one single point that has thus
>> > > > > far gone unnoticed by the handful of extremely vocal Obama supporters
>> > > > > on this list.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Barrack Hussein Obama is 47 years old but 20 of his years are a
>> > > > > complete mystery to America. In the modern history of the US the press
>> > > > > has never given any candidate such a pass as they have given Obama,
>> > > > > and yet none of the Obama supporters on this list appear the least bit
>> > > > > bothered by these facts.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Since I originally engaged you, I have had one question in mind: How
>> > > > > do you account for this, Dr. Campbell?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On 10/4/08, joekc at roadrunner.com <joekc at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > This is really a silly game. Below is just another bad argument. Some of
>> > > > your opinions are facts
>> > > > > > and some not and it is doubtful that you are the best judge about which
>> > > > is which.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Also, why should I answer your questions if you don't answer mine?
>> > > > That's not fair.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > And why are you so upset about this? If you are not either a critic of
>> > > > Christ Church or
>> > > > > > affiliated with Christ Church, why would it bother you that someone
>> > > > thought that you were?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I must say if you are trying to prove that you're not, you are doing a
>> > > > very bad job. Not nearly as
>> > > > > > bad as your case against Obama but still pretty bad. And it is silly
>> > > > indeed since you could prove
>> > > > > > your point easily by using your real name, or meeting me for lunch later
>> > > > today. I'll treat!
>> > > > > > Of course, if you can't since you're, say, out of the country, that
>> > > > would explain a lot!
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Anyway, if you won't use your name or meet me for lunch, I'll have to go
>> > > > back to trying to ignore
>> > > > > > you. Not that I'm very good at it but I'll try to be better!
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > --
>> > > > > > Joe Campbell
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > ---- No Weatherman <no.weatherman at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > > I read your words very carefully, because you concluded by jumping
>> > > > > > > from "as far as I can tell" to "isn't this FACT telling?"
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > As far as I can tell you concluded by calling it a "fact." Is my
>> > > > > > > reasoned opinion wrong, good Doctor?
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > On 10/4/08, joekc at roadrunner.com <joekc at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > > > I said as far as I can tell, it is a reflection of my own reasoned
>> > > > opinion. And I said anonymous
>> > > > > > > > posters are either supporters or critics. Please read my words more
>> > > > carefully.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > And that conclusion follows with a good deal more certainty than any
>> > > > of your conclusions about
>> > > > > > > > Obama, which are all -- everyone of them -- based on fallacies.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > What reason is there for your curious double-standard, that I need
>> > > > to prove my claims yet you can
>> > > > > > > > make any reckless statement you want without a hint of real support?
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > And why not deny the allegation if you thought I made it and it is
>> > > > false. You are curious indeed!
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > And as others have asked time and time again, what possible reason
>> > > > is there for you to post
>> > > > > > > > anonymously if you are not trying to hide some affiliation? Use your
>> > > > real name and I'll be done.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > --
>> > > > > > > > Joe Campbell
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > ---- No Weatherman <no.weatherman at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > AHA!
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > What evidence can Dr. Campbell produce to show that I am either a
>> > > > folk
>> > > > > > > > > of Christ Church or a critic of Christ Church?
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Some of you would do well to answer this question and do some
>> > > > self-examination.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > On 10/4/08, joekc at roadrunner.com <joekc at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > What evidence is there that the five noted by Gary below are
>> > > > "left wing"? In fact, what they all
>> > > > > > > > > > have in common is that they were critics of Christ Church. That
>> > > > is it.
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > So the anonymous posts, as far as I can tell, are either from
>> > > > folks at Christ Church or from
>> > > > > > > > > > critics of Christ Church. Does anyone have a counterexample to
>> > > > this and isn't this fact telling?
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > --
>> > > > > > > > > > Joe Campbell
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > I believe that Rodger means that the names were brought up
>> > > > (listed) by
>> > > > > > > > > > > myself and someone else as examples of anonymous posters. Not
>> > > > that those
>> > > > > > > > > > > vision members were posting currently.
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > g
>> > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > > > > > > > From: "Craine Kit" <kcraine at verizon.net>
>> > > > > > > > > > > To: "Chasuk" <chasuk at gmail.com>
>> > > > > > > > > > > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 8:24 PM
>> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Obama Dilemma
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > >I didn't get any postings by either "heridotus" or "Ford
>> > > > yesterday.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > I haven't seen anything from either in quite some while. Am
>> > > > I
>> > > > > > > > > > > > missing something?
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > Kit Craine
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 3, 2008, at 12:36 PM, Chasuk wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > >> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 12:31, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > > > >>> There were about 5 listed in posts yesterday by Gary and
>> > > > someone
>> > > > > > > > > > > >>> else. Two of them were Heridotus and Ford.
>> > > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > > > >> Ah. I would consider J.Ford more a harmless crank than a
>> > > > real
>> > > > > > > > > > > >> "left-winger." The others I am unfamiliar with.
>> > > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > =======================================================
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