[Vision2020] An Obama Dilemma

joekc at roadrunner.com joekc at roadrunner.com
Sat Oct 4 12:08:07 PDT 2008


Look, if your point was, Sunil argued as follows:

Dr. No does not stand behind his words.
Therefore, his arguments are fallacious.

Then, yes, that is an adhominem argument. But that is not what I got out of Sunil's post.
Honestly, the post seemed more like a request than an argument for a conclusion. "Stand
behind your words if you want me to take you seriously," or something like that. That is not
a fallacy, or even an argument. It is a mere request.

--
Joe Campbell

---- No Weatherman <no.weatherman at gmail.com> wrote: 
> Dr. Campbell,
> 
> The name-calling was not the ad hom. It was immature, but not ad hominem.
> 
> He predicated his argument on an ad hominem fallacy that I do not
> stand behind my words but he gave no evidence to support his argument.
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/4/08, joekc at roadrunner.com <joekc at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > Well, he called you a name but that doesn't make it an ad hominem fallacy. The issue is
> >  whether he used the insult to "support" his conclusion. And since he's just making a point,
> >  not really giving an argument, there is no conclusion. It is more of a request that you stand by your words, as I understand it.
> >
> >  So, no, it is not an ad hominem fallacy.
> >
> >
> >  --
> >  Joe Campbell
> >
> >  ---- No Weatherman <no.weatherman at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Sunil,
> >  >
> >  > What words have I not stood behind, or is this another ad hominem argument?
> >  >
> >  > I call upon Dr. Campbell to decide.
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > On 10/4/08, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >  > >
> >  > >  If Big Windbag wants to persuade others and discuss issues, he should be
> >  > > able to stand behind his words.
> >  > >
> >  > > Sunil
> >  > >
> >  > > ________________________________
> >
> > > > From: idahovandal1 at live.com
> >  > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >  > > Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 10:52:05 -0700
> >
> > > >
> >  > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Obama Dilemma
> >  > >
> >
> > > >  If you're really so concerned about persuading voters not to vote for
> >  > > Obama, you're wasting a lot of ammo doing so on a little listserve in a
> >  > > little town in Idaho.  Rest assured, it's far more likely that Angelina will
> >  > > leave Brad and the kids, move to Moscow to live with me and support me in
> >  > > the manner to which I'd like to become accustomed, before our state's 4
> >  > > electoral votes go to anyone other than a Republican.  Perhaps your efforts
> >  > > would be better spent on a similar forum in a state such as, say, Indiana,
> >  > > which I understand is very much in play.  Just a thought. And to shift
> >  > > gears, regarding Thursday's debate, this from Kathleen Parker, no screaming
> >  > > liberal.  Let me say for myself, while Ms. Palin may possibly endear herself
> >  > > to Joe Sixpack, she does nothing for Carl HalfaCase...Carl Westberg
> >  > > Jr.............".Well, darnit all, if that dadgum girl (wink, wink) didn't
> >  > > beat the tarnation out of Joe Biden. Maverick Sarah Palin fersure surpassed
> >  > > expectations and said everything under the sun, also. And Biden smiled and
> >  > > smiled.
> >  > >  Palin is a populist pro. She hit all the notes that resonate with non-elite
> >  > > Americans: family (Hi Mom and Dad!), "Can I call ya Joe?" personal
> >  > > responsibility, Wall Street greed, children with special needs. Her most
> >  > > effective technique was speaking directly to the American people and letting
> >  > > Joe know that's what she was gonna do, doggonit.
> >  > >  Stylistically, she used the language of the people to great effect. And,
> >  > > you know what? If you want to know what the American people care about, you
> >  > > can go to a kid's soccer game on Saturday and ask parents how they feel, and
> >  > > "I'll betcha you're going to hear some fear."
> >  > >  I'll have to go to the transcript to figure out what Palin actually said
> >  > > and try to figure out whose facts were right. But there's no question: She
> >  > > won the debate on popularity. She did her homework, studied hard, and
> >  > > delivered with spunk. Still, I had the uneasy feeling throughout that I was
> >  > > witnessing a data dump from a very appealing droid. Even the winks and jaw
> >  > > juts seemed slightly programmed. And the question remains: Is she ready to
> >  > > be president should the need arise?"
> >  > >  By Kathleen Parker |  October 3, 2008
> >  > >
> >  > > > Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 06:39:09 -1000
> >  > > > From: no.weatherman at gmail.com
> >  > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >  > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Obama Dilemma
> >  > > >
> >  > > > "This is really a silly game. Below is just another bad argument. Some
> >  > > > of your opinions are facts and some not and it is doubtful that you
> >  > > > are the best judge about which is which."
> >  > > >
> >  > > > I noted your fallacies and you call it "silly" and "another bad
> >  > > > argument." I wonder what the technical name for that one is.
> >  > > >
> >  > > > "Also, why should I answer your questions if you don't answer mine?
> >  > > > That's not fair."
> >  > > >
> >  > > > I caught you equivocating, or having it both ways, with the word
> >  > > > "fact" and when I called you on it, you ignored my question and
> >  > > > proceeded to ask me a string of loaded questions. If this is not true,
> >  > > > please show me where I'm wrong. Otherwise, don't complain about "fair"
> >  > > > to me.
> >  > > >
> >  > > > "And why are you so upset about this? If you are not either a critic
> >  > > > of Christ Church or affiliated with Christ Church, why would it bother
> >  > > > you that someone thought that you were?"
> >  > > >
> >  > > > I am not the least bit upset, I am not bothered at all, and you cannot
> >  > > > produce any evidence to the contrary. However, I can produce several
> >  > > > posts written by you, Ms. Mix, Ms. Lund, and Mr. Hanson where you four
> >  > > > have been extremely upset and bothered. You are projecting your traits
> >  > > > on me.
> >  > > >
> >  > > > "I must say if you are trying to prove that you're not, you are doing
> >  > > > a very bad job. Not nearly as bad as your case against Obama but still
> >  > > > pretty bad. And it is silly indeed since you could prove your point
> >  > > > easily by using your real name, or meeting me for lunch later today.
> >  > > > I'll treat! Of course, if you can't since you're, say, out of the
> >  > > > country, that would explain a lot!"
> >  > > >
> >  > > > I am in the country and I sincerely appreciate the offer but I'll take
> >  > > > a rain check. Now, what fallacy, if any, are you committing when you
> >  > > > infer a false conclusion from my answer?
> >  > > >
> >  > > > "Anyway, if you won't use your name or meet me for lunch, I'll have to
> >  > > > go back to trying to ignore you. Not that I'm very good at it but I'll
> >  > > > try to be better!"
> >  > > >
> >  > > > You're very good at misquoting me and misrepresenting me, and you're
> >  > > > even better at evading responsibility for your dishonest statements.
> >  > > > But I'm struggling with all those posts that you wrote insisting that
> >  > > > you never read a word I wrote, yet, now, suddenly and miraculously,
> >  > > > you have the uncanny ability as a trained logician to describe the
> >  > > > previously and until-now ignored posts as full of "fallacy after
> >  > > > fallacy."
> >  > > >
> >  > > > Rather than ignoring me, I would appreciate it if you actually tried
> >  > > > to engage me — or better yet, engage my one single point that has thus
> >  > > > far gone unnoticed by the handful of extremely vocal Obama supporters
> >  > > > on this list.
> >  > > >
> >  > > > Barrack Hussein Obama is 47 years old but 20 of his years are a
> >  > > > complete mystery to America. In the modern history of the US the press
> >  > > > has never given any candidate such a pass as they have given Obama,
> >  > > > and yet none of the Obama supporters on this list appear the least bit
> >  > > > bothered by these facts.
> >  > > >
> >  > > > Since I originally engaged you, I have had one question in mind: How
> >  > > > do you account for this, Dr. Campbell?
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > > On 10/4/08, joekc at roadrunner.com <joekc at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >  > > > > This is really a silly game. Below is just another bad argument. Some of
> >  > > your opinions are facts
> >  > > > > and some not and it is doubtful that you are the best judge about which
> >  > > is which.
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > > Also, why should I answer your questions if you don't answer mine?
> >  > > That's not fair.
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > > And why are you so upset about this? If you are not either a critic of
> >  > > Christ Church or
> >  > > > > affiliated with Christ Church, why would it bother you that someone
> >  > > thought that you were?
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > > I must say if you are trying to prove that you're not, you are doing a
> >  > > very bad job. Not nearly as
> >  > > > > bad as your case against Obama but still pretty bad. And it is silly
> >  > > indeed since you could prove
> >  > > > > your point easily by using your real name, or meeting me for lunch later
> >  > > today. I'll treat!
> >  > > > > Of course, if you can't since you're, say, out of the country, that
> >  > > would explain a lot!
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > > Anyway, if you won't use your name or meet me for lunch, I'll have to go
> >  > > back to trying to ignore
> >  > > > > you. Not that I'm very good at it but I'll try to be better!
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > > --
> >  > > > > Joe Campbell
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > > ---- No Weatherman <no.weatherman at gmail.com> wrote:
> >  > > > > > I read your words very carefully, because you concluded by jumping
> >  > > > > > from "as far as I can tell" to "isn't this FACT telling?"
> >  > > > > >
> >  > > > > > As far as I can tell you concluded by calling it a "fact." Is my
> >  > > > > > reasoned opinion wrong, good Doctor?
> >  > > > > >
> >  > > > > >
> >  > > > > > On 10/4/08, joekc at roadrunner.com <joekc at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >  > > > > > > I said as far as I can tell, it is a reflection of my own reasoned
> >  > > opinion. And I said anonymous
> >  > > > > > > posters are either supporters or critics. Please read my words more
> >  > > carefully.
> >  > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > And that conclusion follows with a good deal more certainty than any
> >  > > of your conclusions about
> >  > > > > > > Obama, which are all -- everyone of them -- based on fallacies.
> >  > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > What reason is there for your curious double-standard, that I need
> >  > > to prove my claims yet you can
> >  > > > > > > make any reckless statement you want without a hint of real support?
> >  > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > And why not deny the allegation if you thought I made it and it is
> >  > > false. You are curious indeed!
> >  > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > And as others have asked time and time again, what possible reason
> >  > > is there for you to post
> >  > > > > > > anonymously if you are not trying to hide some affiliation? Use your
> >  > > real name and I'll be done.
> >  > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > --
> >  > > > > > > Joe Campbell
> >  > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > ---- No Weatherman <no.weatherman at gmail.com> wrote:
> >  > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > AHA!
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > What evidence can Dr. Campbell produce to show that I am either a
> >  > > folk
> >  > > > > > > > of Christ Church or a critic of Christ Church?
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > Some of you would do well to answer this question and do some
> >  > > self-examination.
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > On 10/4/08, joekc at roadrunner.com <joekc at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >  > > > > > > > > What evidence is there that the five noted by Gary below are
> >  > > "left wing"? In fact, what they all
> >  > > > > > > > > have in common is that they were critics of Christ Church. That
> >  > > is it.
> >  > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > So the anonymous posts, as far as I can tell, are either from
> >  > > folks at Christ Church or from
> >  > > > > > > > > critics of Christ Church. Does anyone have a counterexample to
> >  > > this and isn't this fact telling?
> >  > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > --
> >  > > > > > > > > Joe Campbell
> >  > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >  > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > I believe that Rodger means that the names were brought up
> >  > > (listed) by
> >  > > > > > > > > > myself and someone else as examples of anonymous posters. Not
> >  > > that those
> >  > > > > > > > > > vision members were posting currently.
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > g
> >  > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> >  > > > > > > > > > From: "Craine Kit" <kcraine at verizon.net>
> >  > > > > > > > > > To: "Chasuk" <chasuk at gmail.com>
> >  > > > > > > > > > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >  > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 8:24 PM
> >  > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Obama Dilemma
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > >I didn't get any postings by either "heridotus" or "Ford
> >  > > yesterday.
> >  > > > > > > > > > > I haven't seen anything from either in quite some while. Am
> >  > > I
> >  > > > > > > > > > > missing something?
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > > Kit Craine
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 3, 2008, at 12:36 PM, Chasuk wrote:
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > >> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 12:31, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> >  > > wrote:
> >  > > > > > > > > > >>
> >  > > > > > > > > > >>> There were about 5 listed in posts yesterday by Gary and
> >  > > someone
> >  > > > > > > > > > >>> else. Two of them were Heridotus and Ford.
> >  > > > > > > > > > >>
> >  > > > > > > > > > >> Ah. I would consider J.Ford more a harmless crank than a
> >  > > real
> >  > > > > > > > > > >> "left-winger." The others I am unfamiliar with.
> >  > > > > > > > > > >>
> >  > > > > > > > > > >>
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> >  > > ________________________________
> >  > > Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. Learn Now
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