[Vision2020] Say What? Everyone Deserves Death

[Ralph Nielsen]

On May 30, 2008, at 11:19 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote [slightly snipped]:

> DONOVAN
> There are hundreds if not thousands of interpretations of the Bible.

RALPH
There is usually only one interpretation/translation of what the  
Bible says. But there are many distortions, perversions and just  
plain lies about what it says.

DONOVAN
> Mine taught me that we die because we sinned and God kicked us out  
> of the Garden of Eden.

RALPH
The Bible actually says that humans were kicked out of the garden so  
they could not eat of the tree of life and live forever like God. It  
does not say "that we die because we sinned and God kicked us out of  
the Garden of Eden."

> DONOVAN
> Ralph, it is not my intent to convince you or anyone else that  
> Christ is real. That is not within my power to do so. But also  
> understand, it is not within your power to convince me of your  
> understanding of the Bible for two reasons. One, you don't believe  
> the truth, that Christ exists, so we start off with me knowing you  
> are confused in the first place. Second, the core information that  
> matters is that Christ died for our sins and those that accept and  
> believe shall be saved. Everything else is trivial in comparison.  
> If you don't comprehend that Christ is real, I don't think you can  
> fully understand the Bible.

RALPH
What the New Testament says about Christ has nothing to do with what  
the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament has to say. Most of the HB was written  
centuries before the NT was composed. There is no mention of Christ  
anywhere in it.

> DONOVAN
>  I do commend you though for having the personal discipline to go  
> through the entire Old Testament and read all of that information.
>
RALPH
We do not have to have "the personal discipline to go through the  
entire Old Testament" to read what the LORD God himself said about no  
eternal life for humans. It can be found near the end of the third  
chapter of the very first book of the Old Testament. This is usually  
only about 3 or 4 pages into your Bible. You can't miss it, Donovan.  
And you don't have to "interpret" it either; it means exactly what it  
says.

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-------
>
> [Earlier] Ralph Nielsen <nielsen at uidaho.edu> wrote:

> Donovan,
> You need to read the Bible more carefully. We do not die as
> punishment for disobedience of God. We die because God never intended
> us to live forever like him. Please reread what I have already posted
> before.
> Ralph
>
> RALPH
> In the Hebrew Bible there is no eternal life for humans. I quoted God
> himself in Genesis 3:22-24. But it seems Donovan doesn't believe God.
> And he doesn't believe Ralph either.
>
> DONOVAN
> What would be illogical and a fallacy, would be to believe Ralph's
> self appointed interpretation of the Bible, and its meaning, over
> that of trained scholars and religious leaders throughout the world.
> I believe God, I just don't believe you.
>
> RALPH
> God said he does not intend humans to live forever:
> "Then the LORD God said, "See the man has become like one of us,
> knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take
> also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"---therefore
> the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the
> ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man; and at the east
> of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and
> turning to guard the way to the tree of life (Genesis 3:22-24).
>
> Ralph also said humans do not live forever. Ralph agrees with God,
> Donovan does not.
>
> "Trained scholars" say:
>
> 22-24. Neither the first nor the second account of creation portrays
> humankind as created immortal. Nor does the punishment of v.19, which
> speaks of Adam's returning to the ground from which he was taken,
> mean that he would have lived forever, had it not been for his
> disobedience. Jewish Study Bible, p. 18.
>
> Much later, biblical religion postulated that the ultimate destiny of
> the individual does not end with death. There is not a hint of this
> suggestion in the Torah [Pentateuch], however, or in most of the
> [Hebrew] Bible. There, human death is final. ... With the possible
> exceptions of Elijah and Enoch, all biblical personalities die and
> their death is final. Etz Hayim, Torah and Commentary. p. 1436.
>
> Life after Death. It is generally held by scholars that no hope of
> individual survival after death is expressed in the OT before some of
> its latest passages, which were probably written in the 2nd cent.
> B.C. New Jerome Biblical Commentary. p. 1313.
>
> Concerning the human condition in the Hebrew Bible, "There is no hint
> here of any possibility of meaningful life after death." A Short
> Introduction to the Hebrew Bible, by John J. Collins (Yale
> University). p. 40. (On the same page is "Theological Misconceptions"
> about the Xian Original Sin theory.)