[Vision2020] Say What? Everyone Deserves Death

Fri May 30 23:19:00 PDT 2008

Ralph,

  People die because they stop breathing and their heart stops, at least that is what my Grandmother use to tell me, and so far, she has been right. : )

  There are hundreds if not thousands of interpretations of the Bible, and religions. Mine taught me that we die because we sinned and God kicked us out of the Garden of Eden. After people died, that was it, until Christ came along, died for our sins, and those that believed that will be with him. Perhaps that is wrong, perhaps it is right, but it is what I believe, because it is what I was taught. 

  I don't believe in Christ just because of the Bible. I believe in him because of my own personal experiences. There is NOTHING anything or anyone can say to me to change my mind that Christ exists, NOTHING, as it is not possible for me to believe otherwise because of my experiences. 

  Ralph, it is not my intent to convince you or anyone else that Christ is real. That is not within my power to do so. But also understand, it is not within your power to convince me of your understanding of the Bible for two reasons. One, you don't believe the truth, that Christ exists, so we start off with me knowing you are confused in the first place. Second, the core information that matters is that Christ died for our sins and those that accept and believe shall be saved. Everything else is trivial in comparison. If you don't comprehend that Christ is real, I don't think you can fully understand the Bible. 

  You remind me of the Flat Earth Society, Ralph. I am sure there are lots of mathematicians in the Flat Earth Society that can use their knowledge in the subject and run circles around me to demonstrate that the Earth is flat, but the reality is they are wrong. Just as you are wrong. I do commend you though for having the personal discipline to go through the entire Old Testament and read all of that information. To me it is boring, and not much I feel I can do with information like when a goats milk is good or bad, or how many days to wait before meat goes bad. 

  Best Regards,

  Donovan

Ralph Nielsen <nielsen at uidaho.edu> wrote:
  Donovan,
You need to read the Bible more carefully. We do not die as 
punishment for disobedience of God. We die because God never intended 
us to live forever like him. Please reread what I have already posted 
before.
Ralph

RALPH
In the Hebrew Bible there is no eternal life for humans. I quoted God 
himself in Genesis 3:22-24. But it seems Donovan doesn't believe God. 
And he doesn't believe Ralph either.

DONOVAN 
What would be illogical and a fallacy, would be to believe Ralph's 
self appointed interpretation of the Bible, and its meaning, over 
that of trained scholars and religious leaders throughout the world. 
I believe God, I just don't believe you.

RALPH
God said he does not intend humans to live forever:
"Then the LORD God said, "See the man has become like one of us,
knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take
also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"---therefore
the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the
ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man; and at the east
of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and
turning to guard the way to the tree of life (Genesis 3:22-24).

Ralph also said humans do not live forever. Ralph agrees with God, 
Donovan does not.

"Trained scholars" say:

22-24. Neither the first nor the second account of creation portrays 
humankind as created immortal. Nor does the punishment of v.19, which 
speaks of Adam's returning to the ground from which he was taken, 
mean that he would have lived forever, had it not been for his 
disobedience. Jewish Study Bible, p. 18.

Much later, biblical religion postulated that the ultimate destiny of 
the individual does not end with death. There is not a hint of this 
suggestion in the Torah [Pentateuch], however, or in most of the 
[Hebrew] Bible. There, human death is final. ... With the possible 
exceptions of Elijah and Enoch, all biblical personalities die and 
their death is final. Etz Hayim, Torah and Commentary. p. 1436.

Life after Death. It is generally held by scholars that no hope of 
individual survival after death is expressed in the OT before some of 
its latest passages, which were probably written in the 2nd cent. 
B.C. New Jerome Biblical Commentary. p. 1313.

Concerning the human condition in the Hebrew Bible, "There is no hint 
here of any possibility of meaningful life after death." A Short 
Introduction to the Hebrew Bible, by John J. Collins (Yale 
University). p. 40. (On the same page is "Theological Misconceptions" 
about the Xian Original Sin theory.)

On May 29, 2008, at 6:53 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:
> Ted.
>
> I think you are confused as to what it means when someone says, 
> "Everyone deserves death.". It is not a literally meaning that we 
> should kill everyone that commits a sin. What it means is that GOD 
> is justified in taking your life away for you disobeying him.
>
> Anyone that acts as though they are ABOVE God, disrespects God, and 
> thus doesn't deserve existence, now, or eternally with God. 
> Christ's sacrifice changed that.
>
> Anyone that actually believes we should kill people because they 
> don't follow a law in the Bible is not in line with more 
> Christians, and they are an extremists.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Donovan
>

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