[Vision2020] Say What? Everyone Deserves Death

[Ralph Nielsen]

Donovan,
You need to read the Bible more carefully. We do not die as  
punishment for disobedience of God. We die because God never intended  
us to live forever like him. Please reread what I have already posted  
before.
Ralph

RALPH
In the Hebrew Bible there is no eternal life for humans. I quoted God  
himself in Genesis 3:22-24. But it seems Donovan doesn't believe God.  
And he doesn't believe Ralph either.

DONOVAN	
What would be illogical and a fallacy, would be to believe Ralph's  
self appointed interpretation of the Bible, and its meaning, over  
that of trained scholars and religious leaders throughout the world.  
I believe God, I just don't believe you.

RALPH
God said he does not intend humans to live forever:
"Then the LORD God said, "See the man has become like one of us,
knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take
also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"---therefore
the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the
ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man; and at the east
of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and
turning to guard the way to the tree of life (Genesis 3:22-24).

Ralph also said humans do not live forever. Ralph agrees with God,  
Donovan does not.

"Trained scholars" say:

22-24. Neither the first nor the second account of creation portrays  
humankind as created immortal. Nor does the punishment of v.19, which  
speaks of Adam's returning to the ground from which he was taken,  
mean that he would have lived forever, had it not been for his  
disobedience. Jewish Study Bible, p. 18.

Much later, biblical religion postulated that the ultimate destiny of  
the individual does not end with death. There is not a hint of this  
suggestion in the Torah [Pentateuch], however, or in most of the  
[Hebrew] Bible. There, human death is final. ... With the possible  
exceptions of Elijah and Enoch, all biblical personalities die and  
their death is final. Etz Hayim, Torah and Commentary. p. 1436.

Life after Death. It is generally held by scholars that no hope of  
individual survival after death is expressed in the OT before some of  
its latest passages, which were probably written in the 2nd cent.  
B.C. New Jerome Biblical Commentary. p. 1313.

Concerning the human condition in the Hebrew Bible, "There is no hint  
here of any possibility of meaningful life after death." A Short  
Introduction to the Hebrew Bible, by John J. Collins (Yale  
University). p. 40. (On the same page is "Theological Misconceptions"  
about the Xian Original Sin theory.)



On May 29, 2008, at 6:53 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:
> Ted.
>
> I think you are confused as to what it means when someone says,  
> "Everyone deserves death.". It is not a literally meaning that we  
> should kill everyone that commits a sin. What it means is that GOD  
> is justified in taking your life away for you disobeying him.
>
> Anyone that acts as though they are ABOVE God, disrespects God, and  
> thus doesn't deserve existence, now, or eternally with God.  
> Christ's sacrifice changed that.
>
> Anyone that actually believes we should kill people because they  
> don't follow a law in the Bible is not in line with more  
> Christians, and they are an extremists.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Donovan
>