[Vision2020] Everyone Deserves Death

[Ralph Nielsen]

Donovan made a religious claim, that we all deserve death, i.e.,  
eternal punishment for an Original Sin in an afterlife. He wrote,  
"'The wages of sin is death' (Rom. 6:23 [3:23]). This is a basic  
belief of Christianity."

This belief is based on incorrect understanding about what the Bible  
actually says. Not only is the theory of Original Sin founded on a  
false understanding of the Adam and Eve story, but it couldn't  
possibly be true in the context of the Hebrew Bible (OT) because in  
it there is no life after death (except in Daniel 12:2). And to  
clinch my argument, I quoted God himself in Genesis 3:22-24. But it  
seems Donovan doesn't believe God.

Donovan's response was to make ad hominem remarks about me  
personally. Do I have to believe every book I read before I quote  
from it, Donovan? It was the early Xian writers who cherry-picked the  
Hebrew Bible when composing the epistles and gospels.

Donovan and other Xian believers don't KNOW that there IS life after  
death, whereas I know that there is no evidence for such a claim. And  
the more we learn in science, the more unrealistic such beliefs  
become. I also find it fascinating that not all religions believe in  
an afterlife either, as I have just demonstrated.

Ralph



Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Mon May 19 19:01:34 PDT 2008

Ralph,

   Quit with the strawman arguments. I never set out to prove  
anything. Your saying so is a outright misunderstanding, or  
intentional deception to try and avoid answering my question.

   I will ask it again, for the THIRD time:

   "How can someone KNOW that there is no afterlife?"

   Don't say it is in the Bible. Show me how someone can KNOW for  
FACT there is no afterlife. The Bible reader can only believe there  
is or is not an afterlife, but they still don't know for FACT, as you  
claim.

   If you cannot answer that, then your statement, "And if the  
religionists would read the Bible more carefully, they would know  
that there is no life after death.", is a flat out lie.

   Just so there is NO confusion. I am not interested in convincing  
you of an afterlife. Nor debating the Bible with you. I just want to  
know, how in your mind, anyone can KNOW there is no afterlife?

   Best Regards,

   Donovan

Ralph Nielsen <nielsen at uidaho.edu> wrote:
   Donovan is playing games again. He set out to prove that we all
deserve to die and, furthermore, that we deserve to be punished after
we die, in an alleged afterlife. He has not proven this at all.

I, however, have shown that his religious claim cannot be true
because it is based on Xian distortion of an ancient Hebrew
etiological story. Evidently Donovan doesn't believe that the Bible
is true, and he doesn't believe what God said about no afterlife for
humans.

Donovan also distorted my statement. I wrote, "And if the
religionists would read the Bible more carefully, they would know
that there is no life after death." I didn't say that I know that.

However, it isn't up to me to prove that there isn't, it's up to
Donovan and other Xian believers to prove that there is. And whether
something is true or not does not depend on the number of believers
one can persuade. It depends on the evidence.

Ralph

 >
On May 18, 2008, at 9:51 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:
 > Ralph,
 >
 > So your argument is; you don't believe in the afterlife because of
 > a few cherry picked quotes taken out of context from a book you
 > don't believe is true and written by an omniscient being that you
 > don't think exists?
 >
 > OK, do you know of anyone that is persuaded by your argument?
 >
 > Ralph, you don't know that there is no afterlife, because you
 > cannot know that.
 >
 > Best Regards,
 >
 > Donovan
 >
 > Ralph Nielsen wrote:
 >
 > I already gave you the answer, Donovan. I wrote:
 >
 > If people knew that there is no life after death, only life before
 > death, they would live their lives more realistically.
 >
 > And if the religionists would read the Bible more carefully, they
 > would know that there is no life after death. The Hebrew Bible (O.T.
 > in Xian propaganda) had it right. An ancient writer explained it this
 > way. He had the God Yahweh (the LORD) tell the first man, "By the
 > sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the
 > ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you
 > shall return" (Genesis 3:19).
 >
 > This straightforward statement about human mortality was taken out of
 > context by Xians and twisted into a sorry tale about human depravity
 > in the theological theory of Original Sin. They perverted the ancient
 > Adam and Eve story into a sick yarn about hereditary punishment for
 > all of their descendants for all time.
 >
 > Death is a fact of life for all beings. Neither humans nor any other
 > animals are destined to live forever. The ancient Hebrews knew this
 > too.
 >
 > "Then the LORD God said, "See the man has become like one of us,
 > knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take
 > also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"---therefore
 > the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the
 > ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man; and at the east
 > of the garden of Eden he paced the cherubim, and a sword flaming and
 > turning to guard the way to the tree of life (Genesis 3:22-24).
 >
 > The ancient Hebrew writer is simply explaining why we don't live
 > forever. We are not being punished for anybody's sin; we most
 > certainly do not "deserve death," as Xian sickos love to proclaim. We
 > are products of the planet earth; we are made of dust and to dust we
 > shall return.
 >
 > So be it.
 >