[Vision2020] [Idaho Atheists] Everyone Deserves Death

[Chasuk]

On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Ralph Nielsen <nielsen at uidaho.edu> wrote:

> Donovan made a religious claim, that we all deserve death, i.e.,
> eternal punishment for an Original Sin in an afterlife. He wrote,
> "'The wages of sin is death' (Rom. 6:23 [3:23]). This is a basic
> belief of Christianity."

And:

> This belief is based on incorrect understanding about what the Bible
> actually says. Not only is the theory of Original Sin founded on a
> false understanding of the Adam and Eve story, but it couldn't
> possibly be true in the context of the Hebrew Bible (OT) because in
> it there is no life after death (except in Daniel 12:2). And to
> clinch my argument, I quoted God himself in Genesis 3:22-24. But it
> seems Donovan doesn't believe God.

I'm in an odd position here of being a nontheist in near universal
disagreement with Donovan, yet still finding it necessary to defend
him in an argument with Ralph, with whom I agree almost explicitly.

Donovan is inarguably correct, as, arguably, is Ralph.  How can this
be?  Because Donovan's religious claim _is_ a basic belief of
Christianity.  I am not a Christian, and I consider most beliefs of
Christianity to be infantile hogwash, but Donovan's claim is
contextually accurate.  Ralph argues that this Christian belief exists
due to a misunderstanding of scripture, and he may be right.
Truthfully, I suspect that he is.  But that doesn't make Donovan's
claim incorrect.  It just demonstrates that  the origins of the belief
which Donovan is defending are doubtful.

Whew!  I apologize for the convoluted syntax.

> Donovan's response was to make ad hominem remarks about me
> personally.

Yes, he did.  Donovan's behavior is inconsistent with his professed
Christianity.  If I were Jesus, I would be sad that one of my
followers were setting sch a poor example.  Of course, if I were
Jesus,  I would also understand Donovan's human frailty, and forgive
him.  But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't admonish him to mend hs
behavior.  Maybe the Holy Ghost is having this conversation with
Donovan now.

> Donovan and other Xian believers don't KNOW that there IS life after
> death,

Unless one accepts that God makes known to Donovan and other believers
the existence of the afterlife through divine revelation, which
automatically puts the fact of the matter outside the scope of this
argument.

> whereas I know that there is no evidence for such a claim. And
> the more we learn in science, the more unrealistic such beliefs
> become. I also find it fascinating that not all religions believe in
> an afterlife either, as I have just demonstrated.

Agreed.  We are probably meat machines that cease to exist when our
body dies.  The weight of scientific evidence certainly makes this
conclusion the logical one.

Chas