[Vision2020] Sali Seeks to Delay Mexican Consulate
g. crabtree
jampot at roadrunner.com
Tue May 6 06:37:59 PDT 2008
oops. in favor of, not for. effective proof reading is not a morning activity.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: g. crabtree
To: keely emerinemix ; Andreas Schou
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com ; Donovan Arnold
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 6:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Sali Seeks to Delay Mexican Consulate
(used with a singular or plural verb) any person or thing regarded as the offspring of some stock, idea, etc.
to produce (spawn).
to give birth to; give rise to: His sudden disappearance spawned many rumors.
—Synonyms 7. engender, generate, yield, beget.
I'm sorry if my choice of noun causes you problems. I'm not sure why it should. I suspect it has more to do with your dislike for my viewpoint than the actual word choice.
I actually have zero contempt for the progeny of illegal aliens (provided that they refrain from becoming gang members, felons, or a general burden to America) and would be greatly in favor for an expedited pathway to citizenship for them should the problems with the 14th Amendment ever be rectified. After all, they did not break any laws in their arrival to this country.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: keely emerinemix
To: g. crabtree ; Andreas Schou
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com ; Donovan Arnold
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 8:49 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Sali Seeks to Delay Mexican Consulate
Do you think that referring to the children of undocumented immigrants as "spawn" really helps your argument? Your contempt is showing, and it's really ugly.
Keely
> From: jampot at roadrunner.com
> To: ophite at gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 13:01:12 -0700
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com; donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Sali Seeks to Delay Mexican Consulate
>
> What part of "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" do you not
> understand?
> Illegal aliens and their spawn are subject to the jurisdictions of their
> countries of origin. This phrase was included in the amendment for a reason.
> To say otherwise is to disregard all of the subsequent case law. If the
> amendment was intended to apply to all people born within the United States
> why were Indians, Chinese, foreign visitors and ambassadors all immediately
> excluded? Since this matter has not been directly addressed by the Supreme
> Court it is disingenuous to pretend that this is a cut and dried issue.
>
> g
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> Cc: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Sali Seeks to Delay Mexican Consulate
>
>
> Gary --
>
> You quoted a co-author of the amendment, but not the text of the
> actual amendment.
>
> "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to
> the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the
> State wherein they reside."
>
> What part of "all persons born or naturalized" do you not understand?
> The text of the amendment overrides any statement of intent by its
> authors. If they intended the amendment to mean something other than
> its plain meaning (or if they intended the amendment to express jus
> sanguinis rather than jus soli), that's the amendment they should've
> written.
>
> Unfortunately, conservative readings of the 14th amendment are as
> openly BS as liberal readings of the commerce clause.
>
> -- ACS
>
> On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 6:49 AM, g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > "P.S. Children of illegal immigrants born on American soil or American
> > citizens. If you disagree with that, go ahead and change the
> > Constitution -- it's in there, plain as day."
> >
> > Not in the Constitution, as such, but found in a misinterpretation of a
> > portion of the 14th amendment. At the time that this amendment was
> > ratified
> > (1868) the U.S. had no immigration policy. The clause Mr. Schou refers to
> > was intended to address the status of freed slaves and overturn the Dred
> > Scott decision. According to amendment Co-author Ohio Senator Jacob
> > Howard:
> >
> >
> >
> > "Every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to
> > their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen
> > of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in
> > the
> > United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of
> > ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the
> > United
> > States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the
> > great
> > question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or
> > are
> > not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum
> > in
> > the jurisprudence and legislation of this country.
> >
> >
> >
> > Clearly, this amendment was not intended to extend legal status to
> > children
> > born in this country by legal aliens much less aliens who are already
> > breaking U.S. law by overstaying a visa or making a illegal boarder
> > crossing. This was confirmed by the supreme court in 1884. No change to
> > the
> > Constitution would be required to end the practice of extending
> > citizenship
> > to the offspring of aliens in this country illegally.
> > g
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
> > To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >
> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 2:38 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Sali Seeks to Delay Mexican Consulate
> >
> >
> >
> > Donovan --
> >
> > You are misinformed.
> >
> > It's frequently, and correctly, been ruled that illegal immigrants
> > can't be denied emergency health care, but the requirements to prove
> > citizenship for federally-funded services like Medicaid and TANF are
> > onerous at best*. In order to get either, you have to provide
> > documentation of both citizenship and identity: in other words, a
> > birth certificate and a driver's license.
> >
> > -- ACS
> >
> > P.S. Children of illegal immigrants born on American soil or American
> > citizens. If you disagree with that, go ahead and change the
> > Constitution -- it's in there, plain as day.
> >
> > On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 12:06 AM, Donovan Arnold
> > <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Rev. Keely is being dishonest with her statements and intentionally
> > > deceptive.
> > >
> > > Illegal aliens, the same as legal immigrants, in the US, are legally
> > > entitled to get education, emergency medical services, welfare, low
> > > income
> > > housing, and other tax supported services intended to go to US citizens.
> > She
> > > knows courts have ruled we cannot deny these services based on legal
> > status.
> > >
> > > So you can see her statement
> > >
> > > "The consulates do not exist to help Mexican immigrants gain access to
> > > taxpayer-supported social services to which they are not, by reason of
> > their
> > > immigration status, legally entitled.",
> > >
> > > is a big meaningless pile of sh*t worded in a manner to make you swallow
> > it
> > > down that my statement was false, when she knows it wasn't.
> > >
> > > The main function of Mexican Consulates is to get illegal aliens access
> > > to
> > > US taxpayer supported services. I said nothing about the illegality of
> > > the
> > > entitlement.
> > >
> > > Each day 1000 illegal aliens alone visit the LA Mexican Consulate to
> > obtain
> > > "ID cards" which they force local government, through federal law, to
> > except
> > > in place of US driver's licenses and Visa, which only illegal immigrants
> > do
> > > not have. This allows the people here illegally from Mexico to access
> > state
> > > and federal services.
> > >
> > > Keely is aware of this fact. She is also aware that Consulates provide
> > legal
> > > and financial assistance to illegal aliens so they can remain in the US.
> > It
> > > is also known that the consulates provide pamphlets on how to avoid
> > > detection in the US while here illegally and how to cross the boarder
> > > illegally and not get caught.
> > >
> > > I am guessing that MOST readers on the V, are not so naive as to believe
> > > that the reason consulates exist, and they get tens or hundreds of
> > thousands
> > > of visitors by illegal aliens each years, is to show support for
> > diplomatic
> > > and trade relations with the US and Mexico.
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Donovan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > As politely as possible, let me respond to Donovan as someone who has
> > spent
> > > a lot of time in the Mexican consulate in Seattle.
> > >
> > > Bulls**t.
> > >
> > > The consulates do not exist to help Mexican immigrants gain access to
> > > taxpayer-supported social services to which they are not, by reason of
> > their
> > > immigration status, legally entitled. Suggesting that they do is
> > > recklessly, maliciously untrue. But it is entirely understandable
> > > coming
> > > from someone as misinformed on the issue as Donovan, and as dense as
> > > Bill
> > > Sali.
> > >
> > > Keely
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 22:01:27 -0700
> > > From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> > > To: joekc at adelphia.net
> > > CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Sali Seeks to Delay Mexican Consulate
> > >
> > >
> > > Joe,
> > >
> > > Are you serious? Or are you joking? If you have been anywhere outside
> > > the
> > > protective bubble of a University, you must be joking.
> > >
> > > First off, the only reason that Mexican Consulates exist is to get
> > > illegal
> > > aliens access to US government services, like welfare, unemployment
> > > benefits, food stamps, diver's licenses, gas vouchers, low income
> > > housing,
> > > legal aid, and jobs, that would otherwise go to US citizens.
> > >
> > > Second, you are wrong that Americans would not take farm work if the
> > > farm
> > > work paid a livable wage. If you believe that ANY workers should be
> > allowed
> > > to be paid a sub-livable wage, than you sir, need to rethink your
> > > outlook
> > on
> > > the value of a person.
> > >
> > > Third, your statements reveal your racists and stereotyped beliefs.
> > Illegal
> > > aliens are not all a bunch of dumb, idiotic potato pickers making $4 an
> > > hour. Most of them are bright, intelligent, hard working inventive
> > > people,
> > > certainly more so than the bottom 1/3 of US workers they are competing
> > with
> > > in the US job market. They work in the hospitality, construction,
> > > manufacturing, agriculture, automotive, and almost every other category
> > > in
> > > the below middle class job market. Having 40,000 illegal immigrants in
> > > the
> > > state willing and able to work in the jobs lower class citizens can only
> > do
> > > hurts their wages. Why does a business only pay a house cleaner $10 an
> > hour
> > > instead of $12? Because he can hire 30 others willing to do the work for
> > the
> > > $10. Same goes for meat packers, lawn services, farm workers, and other
> > > services and industries.
> > >
> > > Joe, you don't live in the real world. You aren't forced to find a job
> > > making $10 an hour, and when you apply you are waiting with 20 others
> > > that
> > > are willing to do the same job for $9 and have 20 years experience, most
> > of
> > > them not here legally? How many times have you had that happen to you,
> > Joe?
> > > I bet none. You live in the fantasy world where illegals are bunch of
> > > dumb
> > > educated idiots that can only pick potatoes and tomatoes for $4. They
> > > are
> > > aren't carpenters, drivers, maids, painters, lawn care providers,
> > > manufacturers, and in other jobs reducing livable wages for the bottom
> > > 1/3
> > > of the work US workforce.
> > > Real wages are on a decline, and most US citizens are suffering as a
> > result
> > > of illegal immigrants being allowed to work in the US for lower wages,
> > > and
> > > sometimes illegal wages.
> > >
> > > Oppose Slavery, Joe. Oppose illegal immigration. Support livable wages
> > > for
> > > all US workers, Joe. Oppose illegal immigration.
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Donovan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Joe Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net> wrote:
> > > Donovan,
> > >
> > > How on earth will Sali's efforts "keep illegal activities and illegal
> > > immigrants
> > > out of the state"? For that matter, what can the Mexican government do
> > > to
> > > prove that they "won't aid illegal aliens" and earn a Mexican consulate
> > > here?
> > >
> > > And just for the record, I'm sure that there are plenty of folks in
> > > Idaho
> > > and
> > > Washington who would be willing to pay you sub-minimum wage to pick
> > > fruit.
> > > The problem is not with the Mexican immigrants, and they aren't taking
> > away
> > > jobs that would otherwise go to American citizens.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Joe Campbell
> > >
> > > ---- Donovan Arnold wrote:
> > >
> > > =============
> > > I am voting to reelect Bill Sali precisely because he is attempting to
> > keep
> > > illegal activities and illegal immigrants out of the state. Idaho has
> > enough
> > > problems getting enough funding for its schools, and providing other
> > social
> > > and medical services. Having to provide for thousands of others who are
> > not
> > > legal residents is to much of a burden for poor Idahoans. An influx of
> > labor
> > > also reduces wages, something we also can ill afford in Idaho.
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Donovan
> > >
> > > Tom Hansen wrote:
> > > Just when you thought that Bill Sali couldn't get more ignorant, I am
> > > here
> > > to tell you . . .
> > >
> > > >From today's (May 1, 2008) Spokesman Review -
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Sali seeks to delay Mexican consulate
> > > Todd Dvorak
> > > Associated Press
> > > May 1, 2008
> > >
> > > BOISE – Rep. Bill Sali, R-Idaho, is urging Secretary of State
> > > Condoleezza
> > > Rice to hold off opening a Mexican consulate in Idaho until the
> > > government
> > > can show the office won't aid illegal aliens.
> > >
> > > Sali, a conservative first-term congressman, sent Rice a letter
> > > Wednesday
> > > saying Idaho residents deserve guarantees that Mexican consular offices
> > > will not help illegal aliens obtain identification cards that can be
> > > used
> > > to receive government services or other benefits.
> > >
> > > "Our government has the moral and constitutional duty to take into
> > > consideration how foreign consulates affect our fellow citizens here in
> > > our own country," Sali wrote in the letter to Rice that was made
> > > available
> > > to news media.
> > >
> > > "While I appreciate the important role that the Mexican and other
> > > foreign
> > > consulates play in facilitating trade and assisting their citizens in
> > > distress just as our foreign consulates do, that is not the issue at
> > > stake
> > > here," he added.
> > >
> > > Sali asserted that the State Department has done little to assure
> > > residents that a consular office would not be used to aid illegal
> > > immigration.
> > >
> > > The State Department did not return phone messages from the Associated
> > > Press on Wednesday.
> > >
> > > In March, Sali received a letter from the State Department saying an
> > > application for a consular office in Boise is pending.
> > >
> > > Idaho is one of several states without a Mexican consulate, but a grass-
> > > roots effort to open one has been under way for several years.
> > > Supporters
> > > say they have collected about 10,000 signatures on a petition requesting
> > > a
> > > Mexican consular presence in the state.
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Seeya round town, Moscow.
> > >
> > > Tom Hansen
> > > Moscow, Idaho
> > >
> > > "People who ridicule others while hiding behind anonymous monikers in
> > chat-
> > > room forums are neither brave nor clever."
> > >
> > > - Latah County Sheriff Wayne Rausch (August 21,
> > > 2007)
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------
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