[Vision2020] Economist Rankings of the World's Greatest

Tue Jun 3 19:57:25 PDT 2008

"...there's something humiliating and perhaps even shameful about forcing people to ask for private charity..."

So let me get this straight in my head. It's shameful and humiliating to ask the nice folks at the privately run food bank for charity but going to the welfare mill and waiting in line to ask the bureaucrat behind the counter to sign you up for the dole affirms your basic dignity as a human being? Handing your hard earned food stamps to the gainfully employed 18 year old behind the cash register at the local supermarket confirms your self worth and preserves your pride in some unfathomable manner? I would never have guessed.

g
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Saundra Lund 
  To: 'g. crabtree' ; 'Andreas Schou' 
  Cc: 'vision2020' ; 'Dave' 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 3:30 PM
  Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Economist Rankings of the World's Greatest

  In part, Gary Crabtree wrote:

  "A quick phone call to our local food bank and a brief conversation with its director informs me that the "food banks frequently run out of food" answer to my question is nonsense, at least here in Latah county. I was told that since the banks inception such a thing has never happened."

  Well, I don't know that the OP had such a narrow vision of the food bank world as to look only at Latah County.  Certainly over in Whitman County there have been problems through the years keeping the various food banks stocked, which is a very common problem around the rest of the United States.  Kudos to those of us in Latah County who apparently keep our local food banks adequately stocked, but that's the crux of the problem, isn't it?  Not all communities are able to be so generous.

  And, I'm sure during your conversation the food bank director talked about the lack of fresh produce and meat, important things for the diet, right?  That's a couple of problems for you right there . . . 

  Besides, I think Paul already answered your question - did you not read his post last night?

  Having worked with clients who relied on access to food banks to survive, there's something humiliating and perhaps even shameful about forcing people to ask for private charity, at least, that's what my clients told me.  While food banks can be a godsend, not all are run the same, and what's available at any food bank can vary from day-to-day, which can be a huge problem for those with medical conditions requiring special diets.  I'm not currently in the field, but there never used to be fresh produce available (although my hope is that's changed from May to October with Backyard Harvest) and meat was really only available for Thanksgiving and Christmas.  Even locally, then, there are huge gaps our local food banks can't meet AFAIK.

  As the apparently richest country in the world, I do find it shameful that we're not meeting such a basic human need as healthy and nutritious food for all.  Food banks can be great, but there's something very wrong when we as the richest country in the world have turned our collective backs on such a basic human need as healthy and nutritious food for all.  It's a pretty risky proposition to force those in need to depend on the charity of others for such a basic thing as food . . . 

  JMHO,

  Saundra Lund

  Moscow, ID

  The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.

  ~ Edmund Burke

  ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008 through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the author.*****

  From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of g. crabtree
  Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:27 PM
  To: Andreas Schou
  Cc: vision2020; Dave
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Economist Rankings of the World's Greatest

  "Um. It's virtually impossible to commit fraud with an EBT card without
  the collusion of a supermarket. Food stamps are no longer in a form
  where they're independently transferable. Fun fact: the US government
  now spends more money per year on welfare fraud prevention than they
  have ever lost per year to welfare fraud."

  What would stop me from telling my friend/neighbor/co-conspirator that I would be happy to do their shopping for them. They give me cash, I purchase the items with my card. Seems pretty easy to me. I doubt that there is much that is factual in your "fun fact," but assuming you are correct it would simply be another reason to leave matters such as these to the private sector to be run at the local level.

  When I donate to a privately run local food bank I know that my donation will go 100% to feeding someone who is hungry, barring their taking the banks largess and selling it on the street corner, a fairly unlikely scenario. No money is wasted on bloated administration or bureaucratic paper shuffling. In a government run program I would be surprised if for every tax dollar spent ten cents worth of food makes it to the unfortunate.

  A quick phone call to our local food bank and a brief conversation with its director informs me that the "food banks frequently run out of food" answer to my question is nonsense, at least here in Latah county. I was told that since the banks inception such a thing has never happened.

  Lets drag this back to the core of the question instead of arguing the peripheral issues. What is it about a food bank that is shameful?

  g

  ----- Original Message ----- 

  From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>

  To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>

  Cc: "Dave" <tiedye at turbonet.com>; "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>

  Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 1:31 PM

  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Economist Rankings of the World's Greatest

  > On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 1:00 PM, g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
  >>  It is much easier to commit fraud with food stamps.
  > 
  > Um. It's virtually impossible to commit fraud with an EBT card without
  > the collusion of a supermarket. Food stamps are no longer in a form
  > where they're independently transferrable. Fun fact: the US government
  > now spends more money per year on welfare fraud prevention than they
  > have ever lost per year to welfare fraud.
  > 
  >> In addition, what is it about food stamps that make them less "shameful" then utilizing a > food bank?
  > 
  >> What makes them better?
  > 
  > Reliability? Food banks frequently run out of food.
  > 
  >> g
  >>
  >> ----- Original Message -----
  >> From: "Dave" <tiedye at turbonet.com>
  >> To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
  >> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 11:50 AM
  >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Economist Rankings of the World's Greatest
  >>
  >>
  >>> How about food stamps?
  >>>
  >>> Dave
  >>>
  >>>
  >>> g. crabtree wrote:
  >>>> Spoken like a man who can't come up with a coherent answer for a rather
  >>>> straight forward question.
  >>>>
  >>>> "Just what mechanism for assistance do you envision that an "affluent and
  >>>> technologically advanced" nation might come up with that would be less
  >>>> shameful?"
  >>>>
  >>>> Perhaps you simply were confused by my presentation. I'll try again.
  >>>>
  >>>> Privately operated food banks efficiently provide a needed service. How
  >>>> do
  >>>> you think it could be done better?
  >>>>
  >>>> g
  >>>>
  >>>>
  >>>>
  >>>
  >>>
  >>> --
  >>> Windows, OSX, or Linux is the same choice as:
  >>> McDonalds, Burger King, or a (real) Co-Op.
  >>>
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  >>
  >>
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