[Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.

[Sunil Ramalingam]

Roger,

The problem with your position, 'I think some enhanced interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that saves lives,' is that every single time we question a suspect, we can say, 'He could have information that could save lives.' Then we could torture him.

If we make expediency our standard, then we have no standards at all.

Sunil

> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:09:18 -0700
> From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> To: sslund_2007 at verizon.net; vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
> 
> Saundra
> I didn't say it was not torture, only that I wasn't sure. I just checked it out on google. It looks like it is somewhat different from dunking. I think some enhanced interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that saves lives. I am stil unsure about warerboarding. For the record I hate being dunked. As a kid I stayed away from those that were doing it.
> Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: "Saundra Lund" sslund_2007 at verizon.net
> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:35:16 -0700
> To: "'lfalen'" lfalen at turbonet.com, 	vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
> 
> > In part, Roger wrote:
> > "I am not sure what all water boarding consists of. If it is nothing more
> > than repeated dunking, I am not sure that it is."
> > 
> > You've already gotten great info, so now you know what waterboarding is.  I
> > thought every adult US citizen knew what waterboarding was by now -- it's
> > certainly been in the news long enough, and since it's a torture . . . I
> > mean, a technique . . . that's use has been authorized, we as citizens have
> > a responsibility to know what it is, for goodness sake.
> > 
> > And, I'm . . . surprised it's not clear to you that both waterboarding and
> > repeated dunking *are* torture.  There are many, many, many documented
> > instances where it's undeniable that the horror of repeated dunking as an
> > "enhanced interrogation technique" is torture, pure and simple.  As is
> > waterboarding.  Actually, immersion techniques as a form of torture are
> > well-recognized and nothing new at all.  Due to the perversion of some human
> > minds, there are many variations, but torture is torture is torture is
> > torture.
> > 
> > Should you have any doubts, I suggest reading _Nunca Mas_, the report of the
> > Argentine National Commission on the Disappeared which documents the
> > atrocities of Argentina's Dirty War.  The military junta called the
> > technique of repeated dunking "submarino," and it undoubtedly qualifies as
> > torture by any sane definition of the word.
> > 
> > I'd suggest having someone try it on you so you could form your own
> > firsthand opinion, but on second thought:  DON'T!!!  It is dangerous.
> > People DIE while being subjected to waterboarding, and people DIE while
> > being repeatedly dunked.  Instead, read the accounts of those who have
> > experienced waterboarding firsthand.  While it's not nearly the same
> > experience as those who have had it done For Real, read what Christopher
> > Hitchens has to say.  Read the accounts of real survivors.
> > 
> > I know you say you are opposed to torture, Roger, so I'm curious how you
> > would define it if techniques like waterboarding and having one's head
> > repeatedly and forcefully submerged to a point -- hopefully, at least for
> > the "interrogators" -- just short of death don�t qualify as torture?
> > 
> > And, I'm incredibly sad that we even need to have a discussion about whether
> > such acts at the behest of ***our*** government constitute torture  :-(
> > 
> > 
> > Saundra Lund
> > Moscow, ID
> > 
> > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
> > nothing.
> > ~ Edmund Burke
> > 
> > ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008 through life plus
> > 70 years, Saundra Lund.� Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
> > the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
> > author.*****
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> > On Behalf Of lfalen
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:04 AM
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
> > 
> > Nick 
> > This is in response to your last two posts on GITMO. I am opposed to
> > torture. The problem is in what constitutes torture.
> > 
> > Pulling out fingernails, hung up by the arms,  and breaking bones are
> > clearly torture. When I was is the Army there was a war game exercise in
> > which dogs from the US Army Dog Training Center were used for interrogation.
> > One First Lt. broke and was washed out of the program. I do not believe this
> > constitutes torture. If the dog is turned loose on the captor, then of
> > course it would be. I am not sure what all water boarding consists of. If it
> > is nothing more than repeated dunking, I am not sure that it is. I would
> > defer to John McCain on this.
> > I have no doubt that some of the people held as terrorist are innocent.
> > Paying a large bounty to turn people in is not a good policy and I agree
> > would lead to innocent people being turned is for the mony. There needs to
> > be some sort of secondary verification. As to news reports on the stories of
> > detainees being tortured and their religion being insulted; I would take
> > this with a grain of salt. I have read a lot of reports tha indicate the
> > reverse. The reports say that the detainees are treated with kid gloves. The
> > detainees are allowed to worship as the desire. If any of the guards show
> > any disrespect for their religion it is the guards that are brought up on
> > charges. The same goes for anything approaching torture. There were of
> > course a few detainees related to 9/11 that were interrogated heavily.
> > whether any of it constitutes torture is debateable.
> > In  any case there has been no further 9/11's
> > Roger
> > 
> > 
> 
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