[Vision2020] God's problem

[Chasuk]

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:25 PM, Donovan Arnold
<donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I don't think the fictional people you listed suffered do you?

> Sudden death is not suffering.

Fictional people?  Sudden death?  The 100,000 real people who died
slowly from starvation following the eruption of Mt. Tambora you can
dismiss just by telling a lie?  How convenient for you.

> I also think most people instinctively know to run when a volcano is about
> to explode, the dogs and cattle know.

I'll draw attention to a part of my previous post that you seem to have ignored:

> This starvation was not localized, so you can't foist the blame on stupid people choosing to live in a
> volcanically-active region.

> There are reasons we don't know the direct reason why people suffer. But it
> is always later discovered to be the fault of humans doing something wrong
> that they know is wrong.

Wow.  The depths that you will sink to in order to enjoy your
self-deception are staggering.

> I know you don't believe in God, so you can stop playing this insulting
> stupid game. If you don't want accept the answer that man is the cause of
> his failure's and suffering, that is your choice. But please stop your
> bigoted insulting behavior towards those that believe differently than you
> do.

I have a deep antipathy for stupidity.  This has nothing to do with my
belief in God.  I have an especial antipathy for deliberate stupidity,
which you are exhibiting here.  I don't dislike you, Donovan; in fact,
I am probably one of the few people on Vision2020 who actually
considers you a friend.  However, I give free passes to no one.  If
you want to believe that the problem of pain and suffering can be
addressed by homilies, that is your choice.  But don't try to dress up
your faith in logic.  It doesn't work, and it isn't necessary.  Give a
faith-based reason, which is what you have resorted to in the end.
Start from there.  Faith-based reasons are unassailable, so I would
not have even tried to contradict you.  I don't like wasting my time.
Okay, my presence here belies that, so I'll qualify it by saying that
I don't like wasting my time on lost causes.  But you made a bold,
faith-motivated statement and then tried to justify with reason.  Then
you stopped using reason in all subsequent posts.  If you had said at
the beginning, "I am a person of faith.  I don't believe that God is
responsible for pain or suffering in man.  That we suffer pain and
suffering is indisputable, but why is a mystery of God.  Maybe someday
it will be revealed to us."  If you had said that, or something
similar, I would not have attempted to engage you in dialogue.

I have been insulting, and you have responded civilly.  But understand
that I take every display of sophistry as an insult.  If a subject is
worth arguing over, then it is worth maintaining intellectual
integrity.   I don't believe that you have been intellectually honest
here.  Understand that I don't argue to win, but to share knowledge,
and be educated.  I change my opinion frequently based on newly
acquired information.  I don't consider this a shortcoming.  The
sophists make it hard by polluting the stream of information with
their disingenuous twaddle, which offends me greatly.  It is worse
when they have told the lie for so long that they start to believe it.

Why my youngest daughter was approximately 5, she would get into the
chocolate chip cookies.  She would come out of the kitchen with
chocolate chip cookie crumbs on her lips, in her hair, and melted
chocolate on her fingers.   I would ask her whether she had been
eating chocolate chip cookies, and she would insist that she hadn't.
When I confronted her with the indisputable evidence, she would
express her denial in hysterical shrieking.  She would tell the lie so
adamantly that, even with the evidence still dirtying her hands and
her face, she would start to believe it.  While it would have been
simpler just to tell the truth -- after all, there was nothing
critical at stake -- she seemed constitutionally incapable of it.
Fortunately, she grew out of this.  Unfortunately, many people don't,
even in adulthood.  The illogical desire to be right regardless of the
consequences, not least the respect of your peers, seems to trump all
else.

Anyway, I think this post has gone on for long enough.  You hopefully
get my point.

Chas