[Vision2020] God's problem

[Carl Westberg]

Well, Donovan, I don't have the answers, but I do know that I am not responsible for the horrors perpetuated by 
Barry Manilow.  Or Paris Hilton.  I am nor responsible.   Carl Westberg Jr.

Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:58:00 -0800
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
To: chasuk at gmail.com
CC: Vision2020 at moscow.com; nielsen at uidaho.edu
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] God's problem

Sorry, Chas, all those things are caused by human actions and in-actions.     Earthquakes don't kill people, people built buildings that cannot withstand earthquakes falling on them, or bridges falling on them are what kill people. How many people die from earthquakes directly, swallowed up by the earth?     Floods occur because people choose to live in flood regions and because of global warming and other interactions with the environment.      People die from fires usually because they are in buildings or a car made by humans that traps the smoke in and kills them.     Most illnesses, cancer, AIDS, parasites, malaria, famine and other illness are spread through unclean human actions and in-actions.        Now you could argue, God could prevent humans from doing things that are stupid or immoral, or have
 negative consequences on others in one way or another, but that would take away free will, and would then mean man would not be responsible for his/her actions, thoughts, and decisions.      Now, I challenge you to find me at least two example of where humans suffer on mass, as a result of God, not because of human actions or in-actions?      Best Regards,     Donovan        Chasuk <chasuk at gmail.com> wrote:  On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Donovan Arnold
wrote:

> Every bit of suffering by humans is caused by humans, without exception.

There are legion tsunami, hurricane, earthquake, flood, fire, and
drought victims who might disagree with you. Ditto all of the victims
of
 malaria, pneumonia, tuberculosis, cancer, encephalitis, parasitic
infection, and birth defects. I could make the list much longer, but
I'm sure you get the idea.


> God does not prevent humans from causing other humans from suffering because he
> gave us freewill.

So, I give my kids a gift that is so dangerous they will
unquestionably kill and maim themselves, and others, with it. This
suffering will be also be visited upon their children, and their
children's children, etc., and I know it when I give them this gift.

What court wouldn't convict me?

I'm sidestepping the issue of whether free will exists, and running
with your ball.

If we had not been gifted with free will, we certainly wouldn't have
missed it. I'm sure that my toddlers would have been fascinated by
razor blades, but I wisely decided against razor blades as a gift.
And do you know what? They didn't complain, not even once. We
 are
toddlers -- possibly infants -- before any putative God, so the
comparison is apt.

Now consider how well God engineered pain. I'll admit that pain is a
pretty nifty idea, arguably even a necessity. Think how badly we
might injure or disfigure ourselves if it weren't for pain causing us
to pull our hand out of the fire. But did he really need to invent
phantom limb pain? Or pain that continues for years and years, even
after its purpose has been served? And did he have to make it so
intense? A burn wouldn't have to hurt half as much and I would still
quickly pull my hand out of the fire.

Bravo, God.

Can we dispense with the piety now?

 
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