[Vision2020] God's problem

[deb]

Thanks, Chas, for making my point without me going to the effort. Donovan, 
as usual, fails to see the big picture. Humans do cause much of human 
suffering, but "Acts of God" are the big bugabooo. We humans hurt one 
another continuously, but we are not the only inflictors. We are just the 
ones with the ability to feel guilty about it. So, personal 
responsibility... don't hurt others. Leave as small a footprint as possible, 
damage other life forms as little as possible, take responsibility whenever 
possible, and recognise that the Universe is much bigger than is possible. 
Get over yourself. We are all tiny and nonsignificant in the bigger scheme 
of things. Do the best you can in the small space you occupy.

 And stop shifting responsibilty for your actions. If you don't feel the 
pain of ignoring mindfullness, you continue to be mindless. You promote the 
mindlessness of others, and deplete the resources we are given. Personal 
responsibility and  free will go hand in hand....

By the way---great eclipse last night!! sitting in the snow with a glass of 
wine, watching the Universe do her thing!! Amazing!! How small we are, how 
wonderful we are! Sun-Earth-Moon-Planets-Stars-------Delight!!!
Best to all
Debi R-S

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chasuk" <chasuk at gmail.com>
To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Vision 2020" <Vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Ralph Nielsen" 
<nielsen at uidaho.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] God's problem


> On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Donovan Arnold
> <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Every bit of suffering by humans is caused by humans, without exception.
>
> There are legion tsunami, hurricane, earthquake, flood, fire, and
> drought victims who might disagree with you.  Ditto all of the victims
> of malaria, pneumonia, tuberculosis, cancer, encephalitis, parasitic
> infection, and birth defects.  I could make the list much longer, but
> I'm sure you get the idea.
>
>
>> God does not prevent humans from causing other humans from suffering 
>> because he
>> gave us freewill.
>
> So, I give my kids a gift that is so dangerous they will
> unquestionably kill and maim themselves, and others, with it.  This
> suffering will be also be visited upon their children, and their
> children's children, etc., and I know it when I give them this gift.
>
> What court wouldn't convict me?
>
> I'm sidestepping the issue of whether free will exists, and running
> with your ball.
>
> If we had not been gifted with free will, we certainly wouldn't have
> missed it.  I'm sure that my toddlers would have been fascinated by
> razor blades, but I wisely decided against razor blades as a gift.
> And do you know what?  They didn't complain, not even once.  We are
> toddlers -- possibly infants --  before any putative God, so the
> comparison is apt.
>
> Now consider how well God engineered pain.  I'll admit that pain is a
> pretty nifty idea, arguably even a necessity.  Think how badly we
> might injure or disfigure ourselves if it weren't for pain causing us
> to pull our hand out of the fire.  But did he really need to invent
> phantom limb pain?  Or pain that continues for years and years, even
> after its purpose has been served?  And did he have to make it so
> intense?  A burn wouldn't have to hurt half as much and I would still
> quickly pull my hand out of the fire.
>
> Bravo, God.
>
> Can we dispense with the piety now?
>
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