[Vision2020] Fragments of our Lord

[Joseph Campbell]

Thanks, Wayne.

Note that I said it wasn¹t a good idea to make fun of beliefs just for the
sake of making fun. If there is some other purpose ‹ literary merit,
dialogue, whatever ‹ I don¹t have much of a problem with it. I¹m not trying
to be a stick in the mud. I think it is fine to poke fun in the midst of
serious discussion but I just don¹t seem much point in the continued jokes
about transubstantiation. Back when No Weatherman was making fun of the
practices of Kenyans and Muslims I found it needlessly offensive and I would
say the same about some of the comments in this thread. I don¹t see much
discussion here or much of a dialogue.

I agree that some religious beliefs are harmful, as are some non-religious
beliefs. Ted had a nice post on this topic a while back where he noted the
example of Bush and his ³religious² beliefs playing a role in the war in
Iraq. But what really was the problem in this case? It is Bush¹s religious
beliefs or his arrogant, dogmatic attachment to them and the refusal to
consider the views of others as being equally meaningful? I¹d say it was the
latter, not the former. I really don¹t care what people believe but
certainly I care what they do. And it is dogma more than anything else that
leads to an easy transition from belief to action. All the more reason to
preach tolerance, respect, and acceptance of other view points.

Two other things about transubstantiation (which I never believed, by the
way, even when I was Catholic). By your definition it does not count as an
important* belief since it rarely if ever is manifested in some action. Some
Catholics believe in transubstantiation and some don¹t and I doubt you could
tell the difference by following them around and seeing how they behave.

Second, it is absurd to suggest that transubstantiation can be ³challenged
by evidence and logic.² What evidence disproves it? According to the
doctrine, the substance of the bread and wine changes by not the accidental
properties. In other words, the appearance of the bread and wine is exactly
the same after it has been transubstantiated. Of course, you might note that
the doctrine is not falsifiable but that is another issue. To say it can be
challenged by evidence is absurd. And, as I¹ve noted before, science is full
of its share of unfalsifiable doctrines (the principle of the uniformity of
nature, to name one example), so it has no advantage here!

Nor am I anti-science. I just think, like any system of beliefs, it has its
limits.

Best, Joe

On 12/30/08 10:13 AM, "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com> wrote:

> Joe,
>  
> We may all have irrational beliefs.  However, the point Chasuk via Freud was
> making is this:
>  
> Part of becoming an adult is to begin weighing evidence to decide if
> important* beliefs are really true; and to begin weighing the evidence for our
> important* beliefs when they are challenged by evidence and logic, as in this
> forum, or by reflection and/or direct experience.
>  
> As for making fun of people's beliefs, religious or otherwise, a lot of great
> literature does just that.  Should we just throw this literature away?  Is it
> somehow unworthy because it uses humor to make a point about various
> irrationalities?
>  
> Further, some religious beliefs are very harmful, for example, those that led
> to the inquisition, those that support clitoridectomy or witch hunts, and
> those that promulgate racism, homophobia, sexism, ethnic discrimination,
> theocracy, etc.  If humor can be used as a tactic to
> emasculate/eviscerate/point out the folly these toxic beliefs, why not?  Humor
> often works in persuasive discourse when other methods fail.
>  
> [Not sent from an iPhone.]
>  
> W.
>  
> *Beliefs that shape and determine our actions especially when the outcome of
> these beliefs affects, directly or indirectly, other sentient beings.
>>  
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>  
>> From:  Joseph Campbell <mailto:josephc at wsu.edu>
>>  
>> To: Chasuk <mailto:chasuk at gmail.com>
>>  
>> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com ; nielsen at uidaho.edu
>>  
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:31  AM
>>  
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fragments of  our Lord
>>  
>> 
>> I don't think think it is good to make fun of people's beliefs  -
>> religious or otherwise - just for the sake of making fun. All of  us
>> have irrational beliefs since we have far more beliefs than we  could
>> possibly support with argument and evidence.
>> 
>> Sent from  my iPhone
>> 
>> On Dec 29, 2008, at 4:58 PM, Chasuk <chasuk at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> > I  agree with Freud, and with Paul.
>>> >
>>> > Paul wrote:
>>> >
>>> > 1  Corinthians 13:11-12
>>> >
>>> > When I was a child, I spake as a child, I  understood as a child, I
>>> > thought as a child: but when I became a man,  I put away childish
>>> > things.
>>> > For now we see through a glass,  darkly; but then face to face: now I
>>> > know in part; but then shall I  know even as also I am known.
>>> >
>>> > Freud believed that religion was  a transitional stage between the
>>> > childhood and the adult phases of  human development; that, as a
>>> > species, we currently see "through a  glass, darkly," but that it is
>>> > now time for us to "put away childish  things."
>>> >
>>> > Amen!
>>> >
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>> 
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> 
> 
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