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<TITLE>Re: [Vision2020] Fragments of our Lord</TITLE>
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<FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'>Thanks, Wayne.<BR>
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Note that I said it wasn’t a good idea to make fun of beliefs just for the sake of making fun. If there is some other purpose — literary merit, dialogue, whatever — I don’t have much of a problem with it. I’m not trying to be a stick in the mud. I think it is fine to poke fun in the midst of serious discussion but I just don’t seem much point in the continued jokes about transubstantiation. Back when No Weatherman was making fun of the practices of Kenyans and Muslims I found it needlessly offensive and I would say the same about some of the comments in this thread. I don’t see much discussion here or much of a dialogue.<BR>
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I agree that some religious beliefs are harmful, as are some non-religious beliefs. Ted had a nice post on this topic a while back where he noted the example of Bush and his “religious” beliefs playing a role in the war in Iraq. But what really was the problem in this case? It is Bush’s religious beliefs or his arrogant, dogmatic attachment to them and the refusal to consider the views of others as being equally meaningful? I’d say it was the latter, not the former. I really don’t care what people believe but certainly I care what they do. And it is dogma more than anything else that leads to an easy transition from belief to action. All the more reason to preach tolerance, respect, and acceptance of other view points.<BR>
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Two other things about transubstantiation (which I never believed, by the way, even when I was Catholic). By your definition it does not count as an important* belief since it rarely if ever is manifested in some action. Some Catholics believe in transubstantiation and some don’t and I doubt you could tell the difference by following them around and seeing how they behave.<BR>
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Second, it is absurd to suggest that transubstantiation can be “challenged by evidence and logic.” What evidence disproves it? According to the doctrine, the substance of the bread and wine changes by not the accidental properties. In other words, the appearance of the bread and wine is exactly the same after it has been transubstantiated. Of course, you might note that the doctrine is not falsifiable but that is another issue. To say it can be challenged by evidence is absurd. And, as I’ve noted before, science is full of its share of unfalsifiable doctrines (the principle of the uniformity of nature, to name one example), so it has no advantage here!<BR>
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Nor am I anti-science. I just think, like any system of beliefs, it has its limits.<BR>
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Best, Joe<BR>
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On 12/30/08 10:13 AM, "Art Deco" <deco@moscow.com> wrote:<BR>
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</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'>Joe,<BR>
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We may all have irrational beliefs. However, the point Chasuk via Freud was making is this:<BR>
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Part of becoming an adult is to begin weighing evidence to decide if <B>important</B></SPAN><B><FONT SIZE="5"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:18.0px'>*</SPAN></FONT></B><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'> beliefs are really true; and to begin weighing the evidence for our <B>important</B></SPAN><B><FONT SIZE="5"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:18.0px'>*</SPAN></FONT></B><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'> beliefs when they are challenged by evidence and logic, as in this forum, or by reflection and/or direct experience.<BR>
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As for making fun of people's beliefs, religious or otherwise, a lot of great literature does just that. Should we just throw this literature away? Is it somehow unworthy because it uses humor to make a point about various irrationalities?<BR>
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Further, some religious beliefs are very harmful, for example, those that led to the inquisition, those that support clitoridectomy or witch hunts, and those that promulgate racism, homophobia, sexism, ethnic discrimination, theocracy, etc. If humor can be used as a tactic to emasculate/eviscerate/point out the folly these toxic beliefs, why not? Humor often works in persuasive discourse when other methods fail.<BR>
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[Not sent from an iPhone.]<BR>
<BR>
W.<BR>
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</SPAN><FONT SIZE="5"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:18.0px'><B>*</B></SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'>Beliefs that shape and determine our actions especially when the outcome of these beliefs affects, directly or indirectly, other sentient beings.<BR>
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----- Original Message ----- <BR>
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<B>From:</B> Joseph Campbell <a href="mailto:josephc@wsu.edu"><mailto:josephc@wsu.edu></a> <BR>
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<B>To:</B> Chasuk <a href="mailto:chasuk@gmail.com"><mailto:chasuk@gmail.com></a> <BR>
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<B>Cc:</B> vision2020@moscow.com ; nielsen@uidaho.edu <BR>
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<B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:31 AM<BR>
<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Fragments of our Lord<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I don't think think it is good to make fun of people's beliefs - <BR>
religious or otherwise - just for the sake of making fun. All of us <BR>
have irrational beliefs since we have far more beliefs than we could <BR>
possibly support with argument and evidence.<BR>
<BR>
Sent from my iPhone<BR>
<BR>
On Dec 29, 2008, at 4:58 PM, Chasuk <chasuk@gmail.com> wrote:<BR>
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> I agree with Freud, and with Paul.<BR>
><BR>
> Paul wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> 1 Corinthians 13:11-12<BR>
><BR>
> When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I<BR>
> thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish<BR>
> things.<BR>
> For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I<BR>
> know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.<BR>
><BR>
> Freud believed that religion was a transitional stage between the<BR>
> childhood and the adult phases of human development; that, as a<BR>
> species, we currently see "through a glass, darkly," but that it is<BR>
> now time for us to "put away childish things."<BR>
><BR>
> Amen!<BR>
><BR>
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