[Vision2020] Kerry speech/student tasered

g. crabtree jampot at roadrunner.com
Sat Sep 22 10:32:16 PDT 2007

Mr. Kovis,
  I would say it because I believe it to be true. Had a representative of the local campus Republicans stood up and asked more than his or her  share of questions, held forth on their own opinions, monopolized others time, all the while wildly waving Ann Coulters latest book around as though it were revelation divine and refused to yield when requested, I feel sure that Mr. R would have been in favor of their being removed as well.

I said nothing about whether he would be able to defend such a person fairly and adequately, I imagine that he would. I don't know you and as a result I will withhold my judgment.

I'm not sure what your personnel preference with regard to who used to be behind you back in the day has to do with this conversation other then to express your general distain for conservatives. I suppose that many of them feel the same way about you and yours. Who cares?

As to your quaint notion that your right to speak out is greater in Mexico or Croatia, I suggest you try a similar stunt in one of those countries and see how fast you find yourself somewhere other than in front of a live microphone. The issue in this case was the appropriateness of the kids conduct not the content of his speech.

Lastly, how do you determine what it is that I should apologize for when it comes to a third party? Do you imagine that every time someone is incorrect in some way (I don't think I am, obviously) they need to make some great show of penance before the world to atone for their sin? Stupid notion. If Sunil has a major problem with what I write I feel sure he will call it to my attention the next time we meet, if not sooner. Your prompting or in the matter will not be required or given any consideration, serious or otherwise.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Kovis" <ckovis at turbonet.com>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>; "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Kerry speech/student tasered

> Gary,  Why would you say that?  Do you think that defense attorneys like
> Sunil and me only defend people we like and the causes they espouse? When I
> was in the Army, I would rather have one Sunil covering my back than ten
> right-wingers who want the cops to take care of business.  You have more
> freedom of speech in Mexico or Croatia than you do in the "Greatest Country
> on God's Green Earth."  You owe Sunil an apology.  Chuck Kovis
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> To: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 6:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Kerry speech/student tasered
>> I very much doubt that you would be making the same argument if the guy
> was
>> a raving Bush supporter who refused to stand down after his time was up
> and
>> only wanted to hold forth, not ask a specific question.
>> g
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 6:25 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Kerry speech/student tasered
>> > Paul,
>> >
>> > The possibility that the student was looking to 'shake things up' is, if
>> > true, irrelevant.  He was at a political forum engaging in political
>> > speech.
>> >  That's protected by the First Amendment.  None of us have to like it;
>> > it's
>> > protected speech.  I wouldn't say there was a 'conspiracy' to shut his
>> > views
>> > down, but someone made the wrong decision to shut down what was clearly
> a
>> > dialog between him and Kerry.
>> >
>> > I won't defend the decision to taser him.  I think it's abominable.
> They
>> > shouldn't have been touching him, let alone choosing between options
> such
>> > as
>> > electrocuting him or dislocating his shoulder or breaking his wrist.
> They
>> > were state actors shutting down free speech, and they shouldn't have
> been
>> > doing anything of the sort.  They should have allowed him to exercise
> his
>> > rights.
>> >
>> > It would be different if he showed up and did this in your living room;
>> > but
>> > this was a political event.  There are few places where political speech
>> > is
>> > more appropriate than in this setting.
>> >
>> > You're right that Kerry didn't initiate anything.  Instead of trying to
>> > stop
>> > this, he did nothing but drone on.  He could have told the cops there
> was
>> > no
>> > need for their action.  He could have reminded them that this is
> America,
>> > and that citizens are allowed to question politicians, and that
>> > politicians
>> > answer to the People.  What a chance to show what free speech means!
> But
>> > instead he showed once again his innate ability to miss an opportunity;
>> > oddly enough, that was the thesis of one of the student's questions.
>> >
>> > Sunil
>> >
>> >
>> >>From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> >>To: Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com>
>> >>CC: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>,
> vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Kerry speech/student tasered
>> >>Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 17:34:15 -0700
>> >>
>> >>I think there are a couple of things going on here.
>> >>
>> >>The first was a decision by the police to remove him from the microphone
>> >>and from the vicinity.  The second was to taser him when they did.  I'm
>> >>unsure about the first decision.  I have little pity for him, because I
>> >>think he was looking for an avenue to "shake things up".  That's just my
>> >>opinion.  I also don't think he was removed from the podium because of
> any
>> >>specific thing he said.  I don't think he was removed because he was
>> >>upsetting Kerry, either.  I think he was removed because he was
> recognized
>> >>as someone who disrupts public events.  I would rather that they let him
>> >>finish his question.  However, I don't think he wanted to be allowed to
>> >>finish his question, I think he wanted to make a scene.  I don't see a
>> >>conspiracy to shut this man's views down.  If he had asked them calmly
> and
>> >>politely, he would probably have been fine.
>> >>
>> >>The decision to taser him when they did I can somewhat agree with.  They
>> >>were removing him from the room, and he would not calm down and submit
> to
>> >>that action.  When they had him on the ground, presumably trying to get
>> >>cuffs on him, he wouldn't stop shouting and wouldn't cooperate.  So they
>> >>tasered him, after warning him they were going to taser him several
> times,
>> >>in order to shake him up long enough to get control of him.  I think
> they
>> >>chose to do that rather than to do something more damaging, such as
>> >>dislocating a shoulder or breaking a wrist.  I say that I can "somewhat"
>> >>agree with the decision because I'm not an expert in restraining
> someone.
>> >>Perhaps they had other less headline-making options at their disposal.
>> >>
>> >>This is all my opinion from watching one of the videos on youtube that
>> >>shows the arrest, and from reading comments on various websites on this
>> >>guy's history.
>> >>
>> >>I also think this had nothing to do with Kerry.  He was willing to
> answer
>> >>the questions, and he didn't initiate anything.
>> >>
>> >>Paul
>> >>
>> >>Ted Moffett wrote:
>> >>>Sunil et. al.
>> >>>  Sorry, I had not read the story at the "Counterpunch" link you
> offered.
>> >>>And given some of the responses to this thread, I wonder how many
> others
>> >>>read the story.  I found out what the student was questioning Kerry
> about
>> >>>(the Palast book and the "stolen" election of 2004, etc.) from other
>> >>>sources.  The more I find out about what happened in this incident, the
>> >>>more disturbing the police response appears.  As the "Counterpunch"
> story
>> >>>headline questions, "Why did Senator John Kerry stand idly by?"  I
> wonder
>> >>>if Kerry has issued any public responses to the coverage of this story
> in
>> >>>the media.
>> >>>  Meyer (the tasered student) asked very good questions that need to be
>> >>>asked over and over...
>> >>>  The questions asked were, according to the "Counterpunch" article:
>> >>>  At the conclusion of Kerry's speech, Andrew Meyer, a 21-year old
>> >>>journalism student was selected by Senator Kerry to ask a question.
>> >>>Meyer
>> >>>held up a copy of BBC investigative reporter Greg Palast's book, Armed
>> >>>Madhouse, and asked if Kerry was aware that Palast's investigations
>> >>>determined that Kerry had actually won the election.  Why, Meyer asked,
>> >>>had Kerry conceded the election so quickly when there were so many
>> >>>obvious
>> >>>examples of vote fraud?  Why, Meyer, went on to ask, was Kerry refusing
>> >>>to
>> >>>consider Bush's impeachment when Bush was about to initiate another act
>> >>>of
>> >>>military aggression, this time against Iran?
>> >>>Ted Moffett
>> >>>
>> >
>> >
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> 8:54 PM
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