[Vision2020] And the Count Continues . . .

Wed Oct 31 07:13:59 PDT 2007

Re: [Vision2020] And the Count Continues . . .Ms. Lund,

It seems you never tire of running down the same old oft trod path but, "just for giggles" lets make the trip one more time.

The term "intolerista" has indeed been used to describe a group of "non-elected ordinary citizens." The "non-political" part is highly debatable. (to the point of being a joke actually) The appellation seems to have cropped up in response to a tiny groups spending an inordinate amount of its time being intolerant of another. Go figure. The fact that the majority of said group revel's in the title would lead me to believe that it's not the outrage that you try to make it out to be in your post but, in the interest of fairness, I'm happy to admit that the term was coined by the group you so loath. When it first appeared on this list seems to me to be of small consequence.

The rest of your post seems a bit chaotic, you appear to be asking me to provide links to my objections to things I don't object to. The "name calling" I address in the preceding paragraph. The "harassment" I've never seen or heard of from a creditable source, and I've witnessed no hate in the content of Mr. Courtney's web site.

>From here on you presume to tell me what it is and isn't that I should get my shorts twisted over and that I should work myself into a "frenzy" over the things that matter to you. Thank you for the suggestion but I'll stick with my own council on this score.

Next you go on to accuse me of name calling. Did you mean terms such as toadies, or creepy, freakish, wack job? Or perhaps you were thinking of something like jackass, slut, stupid, or coward? I suppose I'm guilty if by that you mean that I accuse people that I truly think are not in favor of growth in Moscow as "anti-growth," along with people who I actually believe do not tolerate another group they disagree with as "intolerant."

Lastly, I was at the candidate forum where Mr. Ament was put on the spot for his previous "intemperate remark." (One of many) What I heard was his backing away for his testy insults but no apology. I'll apologize for any of MY intemperate remarks as soon as I believe I actually make some.

g

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Saundra Lund 
  To: 'g. crabtree' ; 'Mark Solomon' ; 'Matt Decker' ; 'Tom Hansen' ; 'Moscow Vision 2020' 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 1:44 PM
  Subject: RE: [Vision2020] And the Count Continues . . .

  If you are too dense or obtuse to Get It, then I truly pity your challenges, Mr. Crabtree, whether you care or not.

  But, just for giggles, let's have some fun, you and I, that's actually based in fact rather than your narrow and ignorant/uninformed bias, speculation, or beliefs:  why don't you go back and figure out when the nonsense phrase "Intolerista" started getting bandied about here in the Viz, all in response to the fact the Wilson and his ilk didn't like being challenged or disagreed with.  That's real tolerance for you, Mr. Crabtree:  when Wilson et al don't like what non-political non-elected ordinary citizens have to say, they start the name calling, the harassment, the personal attacks, the stalking, the trespassing, and the threats to folks' livelihoods, etc. with a vengeance.  And, heaven help the critics who used to be church members before catching onto the lies and the Kirk's perversions of the Bible  - they are subjected to a special Kirk created hell in Moscow, and that hell isn't just created by the Kirk hierarchy.

  And, while you're at it, provide links to your voluminous objections to your buddies' name-calling, harassment, and all the rest.  Include your buddy Dale's hate blog if you choose . . . that's fine with me.

  Also while you're at it, provide links to your extensive list of complaints about City staff - current and past -- and certain elected officials - current and past - who decided "Intolerista" was a perfectly acceptable way to refer to a sizeable non-elected chunk of this community who dare to disagree with Wilson World.  Get your shorts untwisted, Mr. Crabtree, and get yourself worked up into a frenzy about extensive ongoing real problems where the "victims" (since we all know precisely how important it is to Wilson and the Kirk to wrongly portray themselves as "victims") aren't your buddies.

  Oh, wait . . . I guess you can't do any of that because you are one of the chief name-callers . . . funny that.

  Yes, just as I thought:  you are part of the problem, so it's no great surprise you refuse to see what's wrong with Glasebrook et al's behavior.  You are nothing if not a Prince of the Double-Standard.  At least Aaron Ament apologized for his intemperate remark, which is far, far more than I can say for you and your hate-mongering buddies.

  Saundra Lund

  Moscow, ID

  The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.

  ~ Edmund Burke

  ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2007 through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the author.*****

  From: g. crabtree [mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com] 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 12:52 PM
  To: Saundra Lund; 'Mark Solomon'; 'Matt Decker'; 'Tom Hansen'; 'Moscow Vision 2020'
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] And the Count Continues . . .

  And what deplorable tactics would those be? Mr. Glasebrook (the guy with the yellow sign, for the benefit of Mr. Hansen) feels strongly that the incumbent candidates discriminate against his church. I do not agree with him with regard to Lamar (His track record on council is too short and I have not heard him make any remarks that would bolster his claim) but, In the case of Ament and to a lesser extent Pall, I believe that he's right. Please remember the many anti-CC comments made by Mr. Ament before and during his campaign. Please recall that before his first city council meeting had much of a chance of getting off the ground he was attempting to create problems for NSA. Ms. Pall joined him in forcing unreasonable and discriminatory parking regulations on the college. Mr. Glasebrook has numerous reasons to believe what he does and it seems to me that he's well within his right to complain publicly. The fact that the target of his antipathy coincides with the GMA's desire to see an improved council does not mean that they are endorsing his actions or that he speaks for the GMA.

  g

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Saundra Lund 

    To: 'Mark Solomon' ; 'Matt Decker' ; 'Tom Hansen' ; 'Moscow Vision 2020' 

    Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:01 AM

    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] And the Count Continues . . .

    Hi Matt and Mark,

    Matt, I absolutely agree with Mark:  please quit singling out only those you disagree with to receive your slaps on the hand while remaining mute on the truly deplorable tactics of those with whom you share more political views.  It's unseemly, it hurts your credibility, and it's downright unfair.

    IOW, quit being part of the problem and start being part of the solution!

    For those who've not seen the Trib's coverage of Moscow's latest Kirker whack job:

    Dave Glasebrook, holding the yellow sign, staged a campaign protest and triggered a 

    counter-protest at the corner of Main and Third streets in downtown Moscow on Monday evening.

     Moscow city politics take a turn for the personal

    Sign-wielding protester takes aim at three incumbents and draws response from wife of one candidate and councilor

    By David Johnson 

    Tuesday, October 30, 2007

    MOSCOW - The campaign for city council here took what some were calling a tawdry turn Monday evening when a Moscow man displayed a sign alleging bigotry against three incumbents.

    "This is a Christian protest, not a vote protest," Dave Glasebrook said. "My big problem is that here in Moscow there's been 20 years' worth of strife with Doug Wilson and Christ Church."

    Standing on the sidewalk at the intersection of Main and Third streets, Glasebrook carried a yellow sign that read: "Vote the Bigot Party - Ament, Lamar, Pall." He said the slogan was a sarcastic way to raise public awareness.

    Aaron Ament, Tom Lamar and Linda Pall are incumbents running for re-election. Glasebrook claimed the three are part of a continued campaign by city government to harass Wilson, his church and New Saint Andrews College located in downtown Moscow.

    "If I stand up and say Christian men in America need to get on their knees and pray in order to change how America is, in order to change what's going on in Moscow, Lewiston and Idaho, people won't understand that," Glasebrook said.

    So he decided to take to the street with his sign, attracting the attention of motorists and pedestrians including Lamar's wife, Aly Lamar, who stopped to mount a counter-demonstration.

    "I'm here because I was riding my bicycle home on Main Street and I saw Dave holding this sign and it really took me by surprise that he was calling my husband, as well as other candidates, a bigot," Lamar said, explaining she returned with one of her husband's campaign signs to stand next to Glasebrook.

    Aly Lamar said Glasebrook told her a number of reasons for his protest that boiled down to claiming her husband voted with Ament and Pall on various issues against Wilson, Christ Church and NSA. "So I discussed that with him a little bit, and got worked up and started crying and frustrated and wanted to do something." After realizing she and Glasebrook couldn't agree, Lamar said she decided to go on the offensive.

    "So I thought if he's going to have signs and visit with passers-by saying Tom is a bigot I wanted to be here to let them know, in fact, that Tom is not a bigot," Lamar said.

    Glasebrook claimed Ament, in particular, overtly tried to force NSA out of the downtown area. He said he was staging the protest on his own, not for or at the behest of Wilson, or anyone associated with Christ Church or NSA. "This is to open people's eyes, saying look at the bigotry in Moscow. Look at what's going on." He said the city council is "not getting after the Muslims" or any other faith, and that amounts to religious bigotry.

    "I just hope God will use this sign and do something," Glasebrook said. "I can't change Aaron's heart. I can't make him do something. I can't convince Tom to do something. But I can get on my knees and I can pray that God will lead them to make right decisions, not just decisions that are working against one group of Christians in town."

    Ament showed up and offered a terse take on Glasebrook's protest. "I think of the two of us, the one that's guilty (of bigotry) is the one holding the sign," Ament said. "My major crime is that I don't tolerate intolerance and that's what I've been hung with. And I will never tolerate intolerance."

    Pall could not be reached for comment.

    ---

    Johnson may be contacted at 
    deveryone at potlatch.com or (208) 883-0564.

    JMHO,

    Saundra Lund

    Moscow, ID

    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.

    ~ Edmund Burke

    ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2007 through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the author.*****

    From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Mark Solomon
    Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 7:04 AM
    To: Matt Decker; Tom Hansen; Moscow Vision 2020
    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] And the Count Continues . . .

    Matt,

    Up until Doug and Dave's antics of yesterday, I would have agreed with you. Until I hear GMA and their candidates disavow Doug and Dave's approach to elections in Moscow then the show fits. Sadly.

    m.

    At 6:55 AM -0700 10/30/07, Matt Decker wrote:

      Tom,

      Any time you want to stick with the facts and quit the smear tactics would be great.

      Matt

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

        From: thansen at moscow.com
        To: vision2020 at moscow.com
        Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 06:30:34 -0700
        Subject: [Vision2020] And the Count Continues . . .

        Seeya round town, Moscow.

        Tom Hansen
        Moscow, Idaho

        "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."

        - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)

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