[Vision2020] Leadership

[Jeff Harkins]

Thanks for the gentleman's response.  I 
appreciate it and I will enjoy responding to you.

It is hard to read a person's intent - the words 
must more or less speak for themselves.

Just note - she set up the straw man by her precedent in the opening sentence

"It seems that Jeff Harkins and the conservative 
candidates continue to advocate an economic model that no longer works."

If you examine my numerous posts on the free 
market system for the past several years, you 
will find absolute consistency - I advocate 
relatively unfettered markets.  She claims to be 
intelligent and well read.  I have to assume she 
knows my position - she has certainly heard it 
from me face to face.  The forums and messages of 
Wayne, Dan and Walter are in harmony regarding 
the relatively unfettered free market 
system.  Therefore, it seems evident to me that 
she has taken the position that relatively 
unfettered free markets don't work.

Then she shifts to a model that I would presume 
she knows has flaws or at least knows that it 
doesn't exist - the totally free market (a 
perfect knowledge, perfect competition model) - 
which neither the candidates nor I advocate.

" Please give an example of a totally "Free" 
market that has survived over time and has not 
fallen victim to collusion, corruption or theft."

But in the interest of respect for your argument 
and to alleviate any concerns about "taking the 
statement out of context", I will restate her quote to her absolute comment.

"It seems that Jeff Harkins and the conservative 
candidates continue to advocate an economic model 
that no longer works - B. J. Swanson - October 30, 2007)"

Now, I remain curious as to whether the four 
candidates she is supporting agree with her?

  How about it Ms. Pall?
  What do you think Mr. Lamar?
  Where do you stand on the free enterprise system Mr Ament?
  What's your view Mr. Holmes?

  Again I appreciate your civil and thought 
provoking response.  It's too bad all of the 
dialogues here can't follow that model - but then 
that would be like the perfect knowledge, perfect markets example  ;-))


>Jeff, that was a fair critique until the end, 
>when you pulled the bait and switch with the 
>clever use of an ellipsis and quotation marks 
>around a fragment of a sentence taken entirely out of context.
>
>It was fair of you to say that you were not 
>advocating a totally free market, in favor of  a relatively unfettered one.Â
>
>But when you attempted to convert B.J.'s quote 
>about your advocacy of "an economic model that 
>no longer worked" into an indictment of your 
>preferred economic model, the "relatively 
>unfettered free market," well, that was an 
>apples to oranges comparison.  Her free market 
>quote was in the next sentence, but even if that 
>was the reference (a post-cedent?) of her 
>economic model that had failed, it was limited 
>to "totally free" markets, not your relatively 
>unfettered free markets.  Where you stand on 
>monopolies in your relatively unfettered market 
>and a host of other issues are questions for another day! .Â
>
>But more significantly, even that statement by 
>BJ about "totally free market" was not 
>necessarily what she was referring to when she 
>said in the earlier lead sentence that the 
>economic model advocated by you and the GMA 
>candidates "no longer worked."Â  Since that was 
>the lead in her post, it could refer to many 
>things that you and the candidates have 
>said:Â  e.g., that more retail is needed to make 
>Moscow grow and mbe more business friendly, when 
>BJ feels that is not the case, or as BJ stated 
>at the MCA forum on Economic Development for a 
>Prosperous Moscow, that "more retail and housing 
>will not drive the economy."Â
>
>It was a nice try to turn a banker into an 
>opponent of the free enterprise system, but I 
>would wager lunch that in concluding that was her position, you erred.Â
>
>For the record, I don't believe that the free 
>enterprise system is an economic model that no 
>longer works.  It has issues, now and aga! in, 
>and monopoly regulations deal with some of them 
>some of the time.  But if you are trying to set 
>up a straw man and have anyone on the other side 
>of the community debate stuck with seeming to 
>prefer a hunter-gatherer economy, or the barter 
>system, or communism, or anything other than the 
>free enterprise capitalism practiced here, well, 
>I don't think you will find any takers.  B.J. included.
>
>Bruce Livingston
>
>-----Original message-----
>From: Jeff Harkins jeffh at moscow.com
>Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:34:20 -0700
>To: bjswan at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Leadership
>
> > B. J.
> >
> > At last you are out of the closet on your economic stand. The
> > "totally free market" is an academic model. I advocate the
> > relatively unfettered market, which if you had read my last 100 posts
> > or so, you would acknowledge. So I am not going to rise to the bait
> > on your req! uest to cite an example. Read Milton Friedman - his Nobel
> > work will give you ample examples of how the model works. If you are
> > so confident you are right, you should write up a position paper,
> > send it to one of the many economics journal and give yourself a
> > chance at world recognition as a Nobel laureate.
> >
> > I think many of us will revel in your declaration that you believe a
> > free enterprise economy is an obsolete idea - it explains a lot.
> >
> > Yes indeed, the world is changing - the Soviet Union has collapsed -
> > and the former soviet states are developing (or already have
> > developed) market based economies. China is emerging as a market
> > based player. Look at the transformation of the world since WW2.
> >
> > The world economy has set new milestones for productivity,
> > efficiency, stewardship and quality of life standards. And while
> >! many countries still lag in prosperity, there is now hope that the
> > free nations can help those countries launch their own economic
> > development efforts. There is a lot of work to be done and we have
> > an economic model capable of the task.
> >
> > And you want to challenge the leadership of conservative
> > candidates? Local entrepreneurs and business people like Wayne
> > Krauss who has managed his business and met his payroll obligations
> > for decades? You want to challenge the leadership of a man who
> > volunteers his time as an EMT - willing to accept the responsibility
> > of making decisions that could mean life or death for one of our
> > citizens. You want to challenge the leadership of a man like Walter
> > Steed who shares his knowledge and skills of the marketplace to bring
> > investment to our community?
> >
> > Here's a news flash - you want to have the! best chance for prosperity
> > in Moscow? Elect Wayne Krauss, Walter Steed and Dan Carscallen to
> > City Council. Ms. Swanson has brought us to a defining
> > moment. Voters can be sure that these three men value the free
> > enterprise market-based system which rewards service and sacrifice.
> > You can be sure that you will be electing council members committed
> > to American ideals and American values. Most of our citizens know
> > that the American dream is alive and well. They will make the proper
> > choices on election day.
> >
> > The free enterprise market system is " ... an economic model that no
> > longer works - B.J. Swanson, Oct. 30, 2007" Shameful.
> >
> > I wonder if the four candidates she is supporting agree with her?
> >
> > How about it Ms. Pall?
> > What do you think Mr. Lamar?
> > Where do you stand on the free enterprise system Mr Am! ent?
> > What's your view Mr. Holmes?
> >
> > It will be interesting to follow the responses (or lack thereof).
> >
> > At 09:31 PM 10/30/2007, you wrote:
> > >It seems that Jeff Harkins and the conservative candidates continue to
> > >advocate an economic model that no longer works. Please give an example of
> > >a totally "Free" market that has survived over time and has not fallen
> > >victim to collusion, corruption or theft.
> > >
> > >The world is rapidly changing. Clinging to obsolete ideas puts us further
> > >behind. The conservative candidates seem to want a Moscow of 10-20 years
> > >ago; lamenting over green grass, supporting 
> a strip mine, development at all
> > >costs, thinking we're going to attract a bunch of manufacturing jobs,
> > >thinking that recycled dollars build the economy. When housing and retail
> > >took a downturn na! tionwide, instead of 
> figuring out how to change and adapt,
> > >the GMA pointed fingers at the City Council and charged "No Growth and
> > >Anti-Business." This is not a good example 
> of leadership skills. What about
> > >a positive plan on how to move Moscow forward? How about some intelligent
> > >thinking and planning instead of negative slogans. Vote for listeners and
> > >leaders. Vote for Ament, Lamar, Pall and Holmes.
> > >
> > >B. J. Swanson
> > >
> > >
> > >=======================================================
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> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >=======================================================
> >
> > =======================================================
> > List! services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > =======================================================