[Vision2020] Water Concern?
Saundra Lund
sslund at roadrunner.com
Sun Oct 21 12:59:59 PDT 2007
Instead of yet another <yawn> Crabtree Diatribe, how about answering the
questions:
"If you saw City irrigation outside the allowed hours, did you ever once
walk across the street or pick up the phone to ask what the deal was as any
reasonable person would do? If so, what was the explanation? Or did you
just decide to file it away in your personal arsenal of "Reasons to Hate Our
Current Not a Good Ol' Boy Mayor and Council"?
If you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem."
Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.
~ Edmund Burke
***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2007 through life plus
70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
author.*****
From: g. crabtree [mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 11:59 AM
To: Saundra Lund; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Water Concern?
Please don't misunderstand, It's not a question of whether I like it or not.
I actually couldn't care less. It just seems a might incongruous coming from
someone who pays such an inordinate amount of lip service to the whole
tolerance and diversity mythos. I guess you're just like everyone else. You
tolerate what you agree with and everything else becomes non-creditable and
offensive.
Just a couple of things before I go. I realize that your bile is a result of
my not taking you and Ms. Husky's little shoebox crusade seriously and has
little or nothing to do with anything beyond that. No problem. The loss of
your respect ranks right up there with missing an installment of Oprah.
Second, I don't hate our Mayor or any member of the city council. I'm sure
that away from their poorly performed jobs that they are perfectly fine
people. The ones that I have spent any real time dealing with are actually
quite pleasant, in fact. I save hate for matters of a much more personal and
pressing nature but that's just me. You feel free to haul it on out for
whatever little matter that manages to ruffle your tail feathers.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Saundra Lund <mailto:sslund at roadrunner.com>
To: 'g. crabtree' <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com> ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 11:00 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Water Concern?
Not working right across from City Hall, I never saw that they were watering
outside the permissible hours - whenever I was there (early morning task
force throughout the summer of 2005), the water was off by the time the
meetings were over. Personally, I've never been to City Hall and seen the
water running outside the allowed hours, but again, I don't work right
there.
If you saw City irrigation outside the allowed hours, did you ever once walk
across the street or pick up the phone to ask what the deal was as any
reasonable person would do? If so, what was the explanation? Or did you
just decide to file it away in your personal arsenal of "Reasons to Hate Our
Current Not a Good Ol' Boy Mayor and Council"?
If you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem.
You also wrote:
"I'm also sorry that being in disagreement with you and those of your
ideological bent makes me a lying phony. It's a pity that you feel that
differing opinions is adequate cause to call for enmity and the assignment
of enemy status."
I suggest you look back at your own posts, Mr. Crabtree. At long last,
you're simply getting back from me what you put out, and if you don't like
it, I suggest you ditch the dysfunctional method of communication you've
chosen to adopt more recently. We know from past posts that you certainly
are capable of more civil communication, so I'm finished giving you a pass
on your shrill screeds peppered with inaccuracies.
Not that I think you give a rip, but I was glad when you first appeared on
V2020 - I found some of what you posted thought provoking, interesting, and
informative, and my opinion was you did a decent job of presenting thoughts
and ideas even though I didn't agree with many of your opinions. Over time,
though, you've become more and more offensive, and any effective
communication of your thoughts and views has been lost in your new chosen
method of communication. In short, you've lost any manners you ever had and
your credibility to boot.
Natural consequences, Mr. Crabtree, natural consequences, and if you don't
like it, you have no further to look than yourself.
Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.
~ Edmund Burke
***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2007 through life plus
70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
author.*****
From: g. crabtree [mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 8:01 PM
To: Saundra Lund; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Water Concern?
I'm sorry, my mistake, but it doesn't change the fact that the city was
making no effort to do it's watering within the prescribed hours, not that
it matters over much in the greater scheme of things. I'm also sorry that
being in disagreement with you (to say nothing of being off by two whole
hours!) and those of your ideological bent makes me a lying phony. It's a
pity that you feel that differing opinions is adequate cause to call for
enmity and the assignment of enemy status.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Saundra Lund <mailto:sslund at roadrunner.com>
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Water Concern?
In part, Gary Crabtree wrote:
"Why was the watering done outside the hours that the rest of the citizens
of Moscow were told were optimum. (and legally mandated) Do playfields not
get "bouncy" when watered after 6:00 PM and before 8:00 AM?"
Not that I think Gary Crabtree gives a rip about facts (I don't), but just
so his twisting of facts to make a phony point doesn't confuse any us who do
care about facts, the outdoor watering hours are 6 PM to 10 AM from April 1
to October 31:
<http://www.ci.moscow.id.us/citycode/TITLE05/chapter17.pdf>
http://www.ci.moscow.id.us/citycode/TITLE05/chapter17.pdf
"Sec. 17-4. Outdoor Irrigation Season and Hours.
>From April 1 to October 31, outdoor irrigation shall be allowed only between
the hours of 6:00 p.m. and 10:00 a.m. local time, unless modified by City
Engineer. Outdoor irrigation by means of soaker hose(s), (water weeping
types) or drip irrigation systems may occur at any time during the outdoor
irrigation season specified herein.
(Ord. 2004-27; 05/17/2004)"
Sorry to confuse the issue with the facts . . . NOT J
Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.
~ Edmund Burke
***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2007 through life plus
70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
author.*****
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of g. crabtree
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 1:43 PM
To: Bill London; Bruce and Jean Livingston; vision2020 at moscow.com; Mark
Solomon
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Water Concern?
My skepticism runneth over. How does this apply to the soggy sidewalks at
city hall? I might buy this for the soccer fields by the youth center or the
park at mountain view which are actual playfields but it doesn't fly for
east city or gormley. Why was the watering done outside the hours that the
rest of the citizens of Moscow were told were optimum. (and legally
mandated) Do playfields not get "bouncy" when watered after 6:00 PM and
before 8:00 AM? How does this address the desire of our current city
government to acquire additional ground that will consume additional water?
If it's all about the liability of falling down on a hard surface why are we
allowing tennis courts and basketball courts to remain open to say nothing
of the exceedingly non-bouncy skate park? If the city is accepting liability
for injuries received on surfaces lacking in bounce I would have to suggest
that they do something about those nasty sidewalks that seem to be cropping
up everywhere. Or perhaps it will be your contention that this is what
explains the damp concrete around city hall?
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill London <mailto:london at moscow.com>
To: g. crabtree <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com> ; Bruce and Jean Livingston
<mailto:jeanlivingston at turbonet.com> ; vision2020 at moscow.com ; Mark Solomon
<mailto:msolomon at moscow.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Water Concern?
Before accusing the city of Moscow of massive hypocracy in watering
parkland, perhaps you should discuss this issue with the parks department
people.
I did.
Their reason for watering the grass is safety and liability. Dry playfields
are less "bouncy" than green lawns. Kids get hurt more playing on dry grass
than on green grass.
So, the parks department opts for safety.
BL
----- Original Message -----
From: g. crabtree <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>
To: Bruce <mailto:jeanlivingston at turbonet.com> and Jean Livingston ;
vision2020 at moscow.com ; Mark Solomon <mailto:msolomon at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Water Concern?
Interesting. If the incumbent candidates you favor are so concerned (and
"responsible") with water usage in Moscow, unlike their challengers, why did
the city of Moscow not follow its own regulations for lawn watering? The
grass (and sidewalks) around city hall sure received more than its fair
share of water as did gormley mtn. view and east city park. Why do they
continually favor the dedication of additional park land? Land which, like
the golf course in Pullman, will require huge amounts of water to maintain.
I have not heard the candidates your organization endorses make any
resolutions to address the water issues in Moscow other than in the form of
anti-growth anti-business rhetoric. If it's outrageous to want to have a
green lawn and an aesthetically pleasant and restful cemetery why not apply
the same standard to city property? (300 sq. ft. of xeriscape at the 1912
bldg. excepted, of course.) I believe that as far as the MCA candidates are
concerned the water issue is a tool first and a genuine concern a distant
second.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce and Jean Livingston <mailto:jeanlivingston at turbonet.com>
To: g. crabtree <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com> ; vision2020 at moscow.com ;
Mark Solomon <mailto:msolomon at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Water Concern?
Gary says, while discussing Mark's suggestion that the Wanapum aquifer
likely will be in crisis mode in 15-20 years:
"Could be 50-75 years, could be 115-120 years? Could be we really don't know
for sure? Could be that Krauss, Carscallen, and Steed have as firm a handle
on the water situation as any of the MCA candidates do."
Not so, Gary. The GMA candidates are "ostriches" with their collective
heads in the sand. And they are very poor stewards of the environment.
I think if you follow the usage curves for when the Wanapum got depleted
once before, our current usage curves and increase in number of wells going
dry shows that we are going down the same path and very likely going to be
facing the "crisis" referenced by Mark in about 15-20 years (not the century
or more that you speculate) -- unless we do something to curb usage of the
Wanapum. We had to do this once before, more than 40 years ago, when we
essentially stopped pumping the Wanapum in the City of Moscow because the
Wanapum was going dry. We (City of Moscow) punched a well into the Grand
Ronde aquifer and started pumping it, instead, which allowed the Wanapum to
re-charge. We started drawing on the Wanapum again, more recently (80s?),
and the usage is tracking what went on in the first half to mid-20th
century.
I have several nearby friends within a mile of Moscow whose wells have gone
dry this year. It is fact, not a mirage or doomsaying, and the failure of
the GMA candidates to learn from history while they watch it repeat itself
is quite remarkable. I would suggest that it shows just how foolhardy they
are, and I really get a kick out of those GMA PAC ads showing swimmers
splashing around in lots of water, while their candidates essentially say
"use more and grow green lawns," and "don't worry about frittering it away;
since Pullman is, we should too."
That race to consume, just like WSU's decision to throw 50 million gallons
on a golf course, is environmentally irresponsible conduct of a very high
order. GMA candidates don't chastise Pullman for that; they instead assert
that we shouldn't bother to conserve and not have green lawns, since they're
not conserving across the border in Pullman and at WSU.
I'll take the more responsible attitude of the MCA candidates. No surprise
there, of course.
We'll watch out for our water. We'll protect property rights and value in
doing so, while protecting neighborhoods and encouraging development that
creates real jobs that drive an economy, not just retail and housing.
http://www.moscowcivic.org/
And we will continue to do responsible things that are good for the City of
Moscow, like opposing the Naylor Farms strip mining project, unlike the GMA.
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "g. crabtree" < <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com> jampot at roadrunner.com>
To: "Joe Campbell" < <mailto:joekc at adelphia.net> joekc at adelphia.net>; <
<mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com> vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Mark Solomon" <
<mailto:msolomon at moscow.com> msolomon at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Water Concern?
>I assume the statement that includes "...regarding
> the upper aquifer which if continued to be pumped at current levels could
be
> in crisis as soon as 15-20 years from now." is couched that way to leave
> room for the obvious corollary?
>
> Could be 50-75 years, could be 115-120 years? Could be we really don't
know
> for sure? Could be that Krauss, Carscallen, and Steed have as firm a
handle
> on the water situation as any of the MCA candidates do.
>
> g
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Solomon" < <mailto:msolomon at moscow.com> msolomon at moscow.com>
> To: "Joe Campbell" < <mailto:joekc at adelphia.net> joekc at adelphia.net>; <
<mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com> vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 2:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Water Concern?
>
>
>> I'd suggest the GMA candidates do some homework and actually read
>> some of the studies/reports on our aquifer, particularly regarding
>> the upper aquifer which if continued to be pumped at current levels
>> could be in crisis as soon as 15-20 years from now. That aquifer
>> currently supplies 30% of Moscow's water.
>>
>> m.
>>
>> At 11:51 AM -0700 10/18/07, Joe Campbell wrote:
>>> >From the Johnson article noted above:
>>>
>>>"I think it's been used as a way to stop growth in our town and I
>>>don't think that's a great idea," Carscallen said of the water issue.
>>>
>>>"We don't have a water emergency. I think most of us can agree to
>>>that," said Krauss. "We could have, at the least, 200 years of water
>>>left. ... But right now, folks, I'm just really tired of seeing all
>>>our yards just burned up, including the cemetery."
>>>
>>>"I know that there are people who believe that we should be
>>>showering with 5-gallon buckets, to flush our toilets with when we
>>>get through," said Steed. "And I really don't want to live that way."
>>>
>>>Carscallen, Krauss and Ste! ed are all endorsed by the GMA.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Joe Campbell
>>
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