[Vision2020] boycotting & religion

[Jeff Harkins]

Paul,

 From the post by Campbell, note the following:


>a. It is not about beliefs. It has more to do 
>with style. You might think my sister
>looks like a dog and that is one thing. If you 
>tell me that my sister looks like a
>dog that is another. If you continue to write it 
>in a bi-weekly column or post it
>daily on your blog, then that is something else still.
>
>b. Stop believing the new lie that Harkins is 
>spreading: Criticism of Christ Church
>and NSA is a form of religious persecution.
>
>Best, Joe


This is the third time Campbell has attacked my 
veracity - I would think that would fall into his 
"something else still" category.

I urge Vision readers to research every post I 
have made in the last decade and bring to my 
attention any statement which could be construed 
as spreading a view that "Criticism of Christ 
Church and NSA is a form of religious 
persecution".  If it is there I will immediately retract the statement.

It is difficult to know what this person's agenda 
is ..... am I missing something here?

Thanks for you clear and coherent post.

>=============
>I apologize if I was misinterpreting what you were saying.  However, I
>wasn't trying to paint you as the person in charge of boycotting.  You
>brought the subject up, I ran with it.  Perhaps because I started the
>message off with your name you took it to mean that I was accusing you
>of this.  Rereading the second paragraph in my first reply, I can see
>how you could take that as a personal attack.  I was just off on a rant
>against people who boycott places or call for the same, not necessarily
>you.  I didn't mean to imply that you were the one behind the whole
>boycotting affair.  My fault for not being clear.
>
>The point that I'm trying to be clear on is that all religious groups or
>individuals should be able to believe as they wish - not that they
>should be able to believe as they wish as long as they don't upset
>anybody else with their beliefs.  I don't care if they believe in human
>sacrifice.  All I care about is that they don't actually break the law.
>While I believe that everyone should be able to choose whom to give
>their money to, I don't like the practice of avoiding businesses whose
>employees don't agree with you religiously or politically.
>
>Take the role of women in Christ Church as one example.  I've had many
>discussions on this topic with my friend who is a Christ Church member.
>I don't agree with him, but I see how he has biblically derived it.
>I've also heard him say how the women in his church have bought into the
>whole concept and are behind it.  Who am I to condemn this?  Now, if it
>turns out that women are forcefully being kept in the church against
>their will - then I hope the people responsible see prison time.  If
>they don't want to leave the church because they don't want to face
>their family's disappointment or they fear being disowned by them,
>that's one thing.  If they have been threatened with bodily harm or
>something, then that's something else and should be investigated.  In
>that case, a law has been broken.
>
>I would be happy to meet with you sometime.  We don't even have to
>discuss this topic or even Christ Church.  I think you are a very nice
>person and one worthy of respect, and I'm sorry if you think I'm
>attacking you personally.  You are a flash of light that often shines
>upon a sometimes very dark mailing list.  I look forward to all your
>emails.  I just don't always agree with you.
>
>Also, my email has been really slow going out to the list.  I don't know
>why, I suspect that yahoo is having problems.
>
>Paul
>
>keely emerinemix wrote:
> > Huh.  For whatever reason, I never saw Paul's email to me and so I'm a
> > little late in responding.
> >
> > I appreciate Joe's words of defense, and I would point out that I have
> > never organized a boycott, encouraged a boycott, or justified the
> > distribution of a boycott list while  on company time.  I have chosen
> > not to shop at Christ Church congregant-owned businesses, yes, and I
> > vehemently disagree with the characterization that not shopping at
> > places that support, financially and ideologically, the work of a man
> > like Doug Wilson is "Nazi-like."  That's it for Keely and The Boycott.
> >
> > Again, when a Trinitarian, conservative evangelical chooses not to
> > support businesses owned by Trinitarian conservatives, it isn't about
> > religion.  It's about behavior, much of which is odious and more so
> > because it is cloaked in religion.  I can't seem to make this point
> > clearly enough, and so I have to assume that those who don't
> > understand it simply choose not to.  I feel enormous sympathy for
> > those in the Kirk who are swept up in its machinations and feel unable
> > to leave; if I knew someone, some local business owner, who was in
> > that position, I would go out of my way to help them.  But those who
> > choose to stay in the Wilsonian fold are no less complicit because
> > they lack a title or a salary, and I am not complicit in anything but
> > living out my principles in refusing to support them.
> >
> > That's me, my behavior, for which I and only I am responsible.  If
> > other people want to formalize a boycott against these businesses,
> > they can.  I'm as uninterested in heading that movement as I was this
> > time two weeks ago.  On the other hand, if people who suffer loss
> > because of their stubborn insistence on casting their lot with Christ
> > Church scream that Kristallnacht is just around the corner --
> > evidenced by their "persecution" -- I'll be happy to head the movement
> > that condemns such a vile comparison.
> >
> > Paul, I've offered to talk with you one-on-one to clarify my point and
> > learn more about yours.  That offer is always open.  But please read
> > what I say correctly, and consider that misrepresenting my views
> > doesn't help either of us to understand each other.
> >
> > keely
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:46:40 -0800
> > > From: joekc at adelphia.net
> > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] boycotting & religion
> > >
> > > Paul,
> > >
> > > You are incorrectly describing Keely’s position and talking past her.
> > >
> > > First, where does Keely say anything about boycotting Christ Church
> > > businesses? She is merely talking about her personal choice of where to
> > > shop, which you note is her business.
> > >
> > > Second, I don't know of anyone who is critical of Christ Church
> > affiliated
> > > people merely because of their religious beliefs. Keely made this
> > point below
> > > but you ignore it.
> > >
> > > Third, how can you call the belief that slavery was OK a religious
> > belief? How
> > > can you call the belief that Islam is a religion of hate a religious
> > belief? I could go on.
> > >
> > > Fourth, please tell us what you think about some of the recent
> > political actions
> > > of members of Christ Church -- the sign suggesting that three
> > candidates are
> > > bigots, and Dale Courtney's involvement with an anti-levy ad, where
> > he used
> > > the name of a dead man instead of his own name. In light of these
> > and other
> > > actions, how can you continue to think that Christ Church is merely
> > a church?
> > >
> > > Best, Joe
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 15:07:50 -0800
> > > From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] boycotting & religion
> > > To: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
> > >
> > > Keely,
> > >
> > > I don't like the idea of boycotting people based on their religious
> > > choices. You think that Doug Wilson is arrogant and evasive. I can see
> > > that. They believe that he is helping them to interpret the Bible and
> > > their religion in a way that they believe is true. Boycotting people
> > > who believe this and tithe to the church *is* boycotting for religious
> > > reasons. The fact that you find this particular religion more odious
> > > than most is beside the point. I could care less about the 10% that
> > > they give to the church. Why deny them the 90% you otherwise would have
> > > given to them?
> > >
> > > You've made a choice to not give money to people who give a small
> > amount
> > > of it to Doug Wilson, and that's fine. Why urge others to do so en
> > > masse? Let people make their own choices. My choice, for example, is
> > > not to care what religion the people I do business with follow, nor
> > what
> > > the character of the people are that they give some of their money to.
> > >
> > > I don't like the divide that is growing ever larger between the people
> > > of this church and others in the community. I don't think it's healthy
> > > for Moscow. I disagree with both the boycotting of Christ Church-owned
> > > businesses and the practice that I've heard mentioned of Christ Church
> > > members being urged to patronize only those same businesses.
> > >
> > > I disagree with their theology as much as or possibly even more than
> > you
> > > do. When it comes down to it, they are just a bunch of everyday Joes
> > > trying to make a living. I propose going out of our way to welcome them
> > > into the community, while holding an extremely firm line on forbidding
> > > them to change any of our laws to favor the ideals of their church. I
> > > propose this, actually, for people of all religions - not just Christ
> > > Church members.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > keely emerinemix wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I've been reading some of the Daily News letters to the editor and
> > > > comments from my letter regarding Francis Foucachon's objection to
> > > > boycotts "based on religion." He is horrified by the Christ Church
> > > > congregant-owned list, and it appears a lot of folks are angry about
> > > > my publicly stating that I won't patronize businesses owned by Doug
> > > > Wilson's followers. They call is "religious bigotry." It isn't.
> > > >
> > > > I would remind people that I am a Trinitarian, evangelical Christian
> > > > with a high and conservative view of Scripture, so it certainly, in
> > > > this case, isn't about Christ Church's religion. I care absolutely
> > > > not at all about the religious beliefs, or lack thereof, of those who
> > > > own businesses in our town. I care about their behavior, and it is
> > > > properly called "behavior" to follow and support financially a man
> > who
> > > > has, in the name of the religion he and I both share, elevated
> > > > arrogance and evasion, not to mention prejudice, to an art form. My
> > > > behavior in response to the behavior of following such a man? I'll
> > > > act in a way that ensures that not a dime of my money goes to
> > support him.
> > > >
> > > > It really is that simple.
> > > >
> > > > keely
> > >
> > >
> > >
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