[Vision2020] This is the same CD Witmer...

Sat Nov 10 22:27:22 PST 2007

If you are correct and " Christopher D. Witmer DOES believe that ALL homosexual practice, even in private, even between consenting adults, and even among people you might like, should be and eventually will be punishable by death or exile" then he and I disagree. I thought I made that plain in my previous post. And with pretty much every post I have ever made with regard to this topic. If this is what it takes to be relegated to "firmly in the category of the bizarre" then your thoughts on what a reasonable man might or might not want cut precious little ice. I guess I'll just have to learn to endure the ideological company of the jolly, wool clad wolves. Unlike you and yours, they don't demand my total ideological purity when it comes to the current politically correct group think.

g
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: keely emerinemix 
  To: g. crabtree ; Scott Dredge ; viz 
  Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 6:14 PM
  Subject: RE: [Vision2020] This is the same CD Witmer...

  As has been pointed out on this list to an almost exhausting -- but obviously not yet effective -- degree, NAMBLA is an organization that favors pedophilia.  Homosexuality is not pedophilia.  Pedophilia is a predatory, exploitive, sickening offense against children; the word means "sexual attraction to children," who are, of course, incapable  in any way of consenting to sex with adults.  Homosexuality is the condition of being sexually attracted to other adults of the same sex.  Its expression between consenting adults, regardless of whether you favor it or not, should not be illegal, merely subjected to the same reasonable restrictions that apply to heterosexual sex.  For example, what's OK in the bedroom is not OK on the steps of Anselm House.  The "who" is irrelevant, as it should be.

  By the same token, knowingly infecting someone with HIV is not a "homosexual crime."  It is a crime, and the transmission of the virus might be or might not be homosexual in nature.  It might not even be sexual in nature -- think urging a dirty needle on someone.  Assault with a deadly weapon -- the HIV virus -- is not a defining characteristic of homosexual orientation, practice, or psychology.  

  I apologize if this sounds condescending, but when people naively toss around "that's a homosexual crime"-type talk and then confuse sexual expression with criminal behavior, a careful explanation must be made.  And those who refuse to acknowledge that yes, Christopher D. Witmer DOES believe that ALL homosexual practice, even in private, even between consenting adults, and even among people you might like, should be and eventually will be punishable by death or exile, will undoubtedly go to their graves believing that no one would be THAT extreme in their beliefs.  They would be wrong.

  Gary's continual need to de-fang the lupine practices and beliefs of the CREC types long ago ceased to be puzzling.  It's now firmly in the category of the bizarre, and I'd think that a reasonable man would not want to find himself there, caged among the wolves -- even if they look harmless and jolly in their sheeps' clothing.

  keely

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    From: jampot at roadrunner.com
    To: sdredge at yahoo.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
    Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:42:15 -0800
    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] This is the same CD Witmer...

    Since it's clear it's an argument you desire, try this on for size. I have no problem at all with some homosexual crimes being punishable with death or exile (prison). Knowingly transmitting HIV/AIDS to an unwitting partner comes to mind along with pretty much everything NAMBLA stands for. I do not believe that it should be a crime to simply be homosexual and I doubt that Mr. Witmer believes this either. Furthermore, private consensual relations between two parties of majority would not meet the criterion Mr. Witmer set out in the post you provide reference to.

    I find it hard to believe that because I am not in favor of state recognition of homosexual marriage you can make the leap to my potentially being in favor of the mass extermination of all people of this persuasion. Is this a case of faulty logic or a desire to stir the pot? If the former, allow me to be clear. In my opinion no one should be executed or exiled for simply being a homosexual. If it's the later, let the games begin but please direct your comments to Mr. Witmer and feel free to leave me out.

    g
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Scott Dredge 
      To: viz 
      Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 10:01 AM
      Subject: [Vision2020] This is the same CD Witmer...

      > Carl writes: 'This is the same C.D. Witmer who has stated that, in the
      > perfect world envisioned by Mr. Witmer, citizens would be required to
      > take a "trinitarian test oath."  What a, uh, interesting fellow.
      > Carl Westberg Jr.'

      Yes Carl, he's the same one who salivates over the return of the days when
      gays will once again be executed.  Let's see Gary Crabtree try and defend
      this one.  Witmer's verbatim quote is "I most definitely look forward to the day when society changes its laws to be more in line with the Bible's teaching, so that homosexual crimes can be once again be legally punishable by death or exile."

      Full text at:

      http://right-mind.us/blogs/blog_0/archive/2006/05/16/43701.aspx

      From: kjajmix1 at msn.com
      To: thansen at
       moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
      Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 18:49:50 -0700
      Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Sat What?

      If I had the energy, I'd spend my evening playing the "is he more racist, or more homophobic?" game.  However, I'm a bit fatigued, so I'll just go with "he's a thoroughly disgraceful man" and call it a night.

      keely

      > From: thansen at moscow.com
      > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
      > Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:22:00 -0700
      > Subject: [Vision2020] Sat What?
      > 
      > "New Orleans is also overwhelmingly black, and blacks as a group have been
      > destroyed by multiple generations of dependency on government welfare, which
      > is already a form of theft at gunpoint. From such a position it is but a
      > small additional step to looting."
      > 
      > - C. D. Witmer (November 2, 2007)

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