[Vision2020] Abortion Reform or holocaust

Glenn Schwaller vpschwaller at gmail.com
Wed May 23 09:44:08 PDT 2007

Mr Campbell,

I don't believe that I claimed arguments are useless when it comes to
changing one's beliefs.  I believe I stated that it seems to me that is the
case.  Perhaps for you expressing an opinion and making a claim are not
mutually exclusive.  My purpose, since you asked, was to express an opinion.

You ask me to draw distinctions between moral issues and legal issues:  How
do I "feel about abortion and the law."  I'm not sure I even understand your
question, but from my perspective the law says abortion is legal.  I don't
agree with the law.  Since I don't think laws are intrinsically wrong or
right, but are based on conventions that embody the values (morals??
ethics??) of a community, in order to explain why I disagree with the law, I
have to invoke my personal values.  They just happen to differ with respect
to those of the "community."

I don't see how you can separate morality and ethics from the law.  It seems
to me most laws are based on ethical and moral principles.  And many times
these collide head-on.  Is a persons decision to drink alcohol a moral or
ethical choice?  To some it is, yet the law says it is perfectly legal to
possess and drink alcohol.  Certainly there are consequences if one drinks
too much, or participates in legal behaviors (driving for example) while
under the influence of alcohol.  Good heavens such a conundrum!  It's legal
for me to drive, it's legal for me to drink, but I cannot drink and drive!
Well of course not because, one could argue, it is immoral and unethical to
put other's in harms way by driving while drunk.

Is a persons decision to use marijuana a moral or ethical choice?  To some
it is, yet the law says it is absolutely illegal to possess and use
marijuana.  It is not my intent to debate the issues surrounding the
legality of marijuana.  I simply point out that the law differs on an
individuals choice to use two intoxicating substances, and I would suggest
this reflects the values of the community.  Law and morality intertwined.

Lastly, I don't recall anyone referring to my my posts as "immoral".
Perhaps some did and I missed it.  If providing specific information in
response to a specific question in what I had hoped and intended to be a
non-judgmental manner is immoral, then I'm guilty as charged.  I do find it
curious that because some don't like the answers, they find it "morally"
acceptable to point the finger at the information provider and say "You
cretin!  How dare you provide me with information I asked for but with which
I don't agree!"

"No one loves the messenger who brings bad news."

On 5/22/07, Joe Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net> wrote:
> Mr. Schwaller,
> I find it interesting that, in response to Nick's post, you first claim
> that arguments are useless when it comes to changing one's beliefs and then
> proceed to offer some arguments of your own! What was your purpose if not to
> try to change someone's belief?
> I want to know what you feel about abortion and the law -- not the moral
> issue of abortion but the legal issue. I agree with you about the moral
> issue but we seem to be in some disagreement about the legal issue.
> For instance, I don't see how I can forbid a rape victim from having an
> abortion simply because I think that abortion is immoral. I don't see how my
> belief should restrict her action in any way. Thus, I'm against laws
> restricting abortion (at least until viability) though I might agree with
> you that abortion is immoral (though I wouldn't put it that way).
> Here is an analogy. Some people think that your posts on Sitler were
> immoral. Some have expressed on Vision 2020 that you should not have said
> the things that you said and clearly the presumption was that they would
> never have written those things. Yet that is no basis for imposing legal
> restrictions on your posts. Clearly you didn't think that the posts were
> immoral and it seems that the fact that others disagree is and should be
> irrelevant to whether or not you should have posted them.
> Of course, if the other people are right, then you shouldn't have posted
> your comments about Sitler -- morally speaking. But it doesn't follow from
> even this that we should have a law restricting such posts.
> Lastly, the fact that most pregnancies are not the result of rape is
> entirely beside the point in either the legal or moral debate. Most killings
> are not instances of self-defense but it would be absurd to argue on this
> basis alone that killing in self-defense is immoral or that it should be
> illegal. I'm impressed that you know so many facts about abortion in America
> but the numbers and statistics are irrelevant to the moral and legal issues.
> --
> Joe Campbell
> ------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 13:55:57 -0700
> From: "Glenn Schwaller" < vpschwaller at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Abortion Reform or holocaust
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Message-ID:
>         < 323338460705221355q3d9da830x54e5543907e2fb9f at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> Dr Gier,
> I have read your posting, and I have read your complete article.
> Unfortunately, as in most things of human nature, neither theological, nor
> scientific, nor logical arguments seem to change ones beliefs or
> opinions.  Witness the Vision2020 website.
> Your article appears to cover a wide range of viewpoints on abortion; a
> thorough treatise indeed.  However, (and I may be wrong) I doubt many will
> change their core beliefs because of it.  As a group (Catholics, the
> Government etc.) may adopt different stances on an issue, but I believe
> this
> to be more a reflection of how public opinion changes things (you want my
> vote, you best get on board) and not how individuals of the group feel or
> believe.
> We mourn the loss of 4 of own in last weekend's tragedy.  I note an
> article
> on page 3 of Monday's MPDN:  Report: N. Idaho abortion rate higher than
> rest
> of state.
> In 2005 Idaho reported over 22,500 live births across the state.  The
> range
> in abortions per 1000 ranged from 79 to 206 for that same year.  If we
> take
> a median value of about 142 abortions per 1000 births this results in over
> 3000 abortions in 2005, over 8 per day.  Twice our loss over the weekend
> in
> Moscow per day.
> I, personally, feel abortion to be wrong.  At any time post-conception.  I
> will, however, make a concession to therapeutic abortions when the life of
> the mother is at risk.  I liken this to a self-defense killing.  Would I
> kill someone because they are an "inconvenience" to me?  Absolutely not.
> Would I kill someone because they threaten my life?  In a heartbeat.
> However, I refuse to believe over 3000 abortions performed in Idaho in
> 2005
> were therapeutic.
> Rape and/or incest?  I cannot justify abortion in those instances.  The
> National Crime Victimization Study in 2005 reported a little over 64,000
> rapes in the United States.  The medical community suggests around a 5%
> pregnancy rate for 1-time intercourse, resulting in a little more than
> 3200
> pregnancies as a result of rape and/or incest.  Out of over 4 million live
> births in the US in that same year, this looks to me like about 0.08% can
> be
> attributed to rape and/or incest.  Enough to justify abortion as a
> "right"?
> For me, no.
> So, what to do with all these unwanted children that would litter our
> little
> universe?  I'll hold that for another post.  In the meantime, I'm sure you
> Visionaries will give your ideas.
> Schwaller
> On 5/22/07, nickgier at adelphia.net <nickgier at adelphia.net> wrote:
> > Good Morning:
> >
> > I just listened to yesterday's press conference on the tragedy and I was
> very impressed with the composure and professionalism of our city
> leaders.  I especially admired the comment of UI President White and Mayor
> Chaney.  Tom Stroschein's statement was moving and eloquent.  The law
> enforcement officials were very professional and answered tough questions
> with thoroughly informed answers.
> >
> > Out of respect for many on this list, I will hold my draft column on gun
> control and violence in America for a later date.  I do feel an obligation
> to meet my KRFP radio commentary deadline for tomorrow and will go ahead
> with my scheduled topic.
> >
> > I have added this statement to my recorded talk: "Before I begin I would
> like to extend my condolences to the families of Officier Bill Newbill,
> Paul
> Bauer, Crystal Hamilton, and Jason Hamilton.  It is good news to hear that
> Officier Brannon Jordan and Peter Hussman will recover from their
> injuries."  Please note that I have not left out Jason Hamilton's
> family.  They should not be ignored just because of their son's deeds.
> >
> > A note to ToeKnee: Please hold all comments about me being a Nazi.
> >
> >
> > First published in the Los Cabos Daily News, May 16, 2007
> >
> > Read my complete article on abortion at
> www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/abortion.htm .
> >
> > The law does not provide that the act of abortion pertains to homicide,
> > for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks
> sensation....
> > --St. Augustine
> >
> > In April of 2007 the Mexico City government voted 46-19 to decriminalize
> abortion, the first city in Latin America (except Cuba) where elective
> abortions are now legal.  These Countries do allow therapeutic abortions
> in
> the case of rape and a threat to the life of the mother.
> >
> > A papal envoy sent to the Mexican capital before the vote declared that
> any Catholic legislator who supported the bill would be excommunicated,
> but
> a large majority ignored the threat.  Other scare tactics, such as
> comparing
> abortion to suicide bombing, apparently did not work.
> >
> > Most people do not realize that at one time the Vatican had a less
> strict
> view on abortion.  The killing of a first trimester fetus was not murder
> until a papal decree of 1869, and canon law on this point was not changed
> until 1917.  It is worth noting that over 90 percent of all American
> abortions are performed in the first trimester.
> >
> > Drawing on Greek ideas of fetal development that are partially confirmed
> by current science, St. Thomas Aquinas believed that the fetus was not a
> person until late in pregnancy. The Catholic philosopher Jacques Maritain
> declared that "to admit that the human fetus" is a person "from the moment
> of conception . . . sounds to me like a philosophical absurdity."
> >
> > The 1917 change in canon law may have been the result of applying
> genetics
> to the abortion issue.  Some have argued that the conceptus is a person
> because it has a unique genetic identity. Most animal fetuses have unique
> genetic identities, so does this mean that we have to protect their lives
> as
> well?
> >
> > This argument confuses genetic and personal identity.  Twins have the
> same
> genetic identity, but they become two different moral and legal persons.
> With the technology of cloning every cell in the body could be made into
> thousands of persons all with the same genetic identity.
> >
> > It is supremely ironic that the genetic argument completely undermines
> the
> idea of the person as a spiritual being.  Genetics deals only with the
> material body, not our spiritual natures, which are, according to
> Judeo-Christianity, special creations in "the image of God."
> >
> > St.Thomas believed that the divine image is implanted late in pregnancy,
> not a conception.  He concluded that the person "is created by God at the
> completion of man's coming into being."  As surprising as it sounds, the
> greatest Catholic theologian, declared infallible by Pius IX, would have
> agreed with Roe v. Wade.
> >
> > Not only can Catholics make sound philosophical arguments for abortion
> reform, they can also make strong practical arguments.  Just because
> abortion is illegal does not mean that it does not happen. The gruesome
> ways
> that it does occur cries out for reform.
> >
> > The Alan Guttmacher Institute (www.guttmacher.org) has estimated that 4
> million illegal abortions are performed in Latin America each year, and
> approximately 800,000 women are hospitalized because of complications
> resulting from unsafe techniques.  It is estimated that 1,500 Mexican
> women
> die each year because of clandestine abortions.
> >
> > The Guttmacher report has made a list of the techniques Latin American
> women use because they are not offered safe, legal abortions.  These
> desperate women take caustic substances orally and vaginally, or they
> insert
> rubber tubes (sometimes with toxic fluids), wires, knitting needles, or
> just
> sticks.
> >
> > Compared to an abortion rate of 11 per 1,000 women in Western Europe and
> 26 per 1,000 in the U.S., there are an estimated 37 abortions for every
> thousand Latin American women.  More abortions are performed in Brazil
> alone
> than in the U.S, even though the U.S. has 122 million more people.
> >
> > The Guttmacher report demonstrated that Latin American abortion rates
> have
> dropped since 1980 primarily because of increased use of contraceptives.
> In
> direct opposition to church doctrine, Mexico and Columbia have national
> family planning programs; and, significantly, they also have the lowest
> abortion rates in Latin America.
> >
> > When Pius IX moved personhood back to conception in 1869 that meant that
> stricter controls had to be placed on all attempts to prevent
> fertilization.
> The double ban on abortion and contraception has been disastrous for
> women's
> health in Catholic countries.
> >
> > Using sound philosophical and practical arguments, Catholics can promote
> sex education, systematic family planning programs, and safe, legal
> abortion.  The logic is simple: fewer unwanted pregnancies mean fewer
> abortions and healthier mothers.
> >
> >
> > =======================================================
> >  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >                http://www.fsr.net
> >           mailto: Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > =======================================================
> >
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> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 14:03:00 -0700
> From: "Stephanie Kalasz" <skalasz at ci.moscow.id.us>
> Subject: [Vision2020] Press Release - City of Moscow Offices Closed
>         Friday, May 25, 2007,   From Noon to 5:00 p.m. for Officer Lee
> Newbill's
>         Memorial Service
> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Message-ID:
>         < 7FF17F158107374CB6E4E16ADD5B1250409484 at mail1.CI.MOSCOW.ID.US>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> All city of Moscow offices, except for essential services, will be
> closed on May 25, 2007, from 12:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m. to allow city
> employees to attend the funeral services of their fellow co-worker,
> Moscow Police Officer Lee Newbill.  The funeral of Officer Newbill, who
> was killed in the line of duty on May 19, 2007, will be held Friday, May
> 25, 2007, at 1:00 p.m. at the University of Idaho Kibbie Dome.
> The community is invited to attend the funeral services.  The community
> may also share their comments in memory of Officer Newbill by visiting
> the city's Web page at
> http://www.ci.moscow.id.us/Police/LeeNewbill/index.htm.
> Planning for the funeral is being coordinated by area chaplains who are
> based out of the Moscow Police Department Substation.  Specific
> questions regarding the services can be directed to the funeral's Public
> Information Officer Glenn Johnson by calling (509) 432-6894.
> Gary J. Riedner
> City Supervisor
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>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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