Mr Campbell, <br><br>I don't believe that I claimed arguments are useless when it comes to changing one's beliefs. I believe I stated that it seems to me that is the case. Perhaps for you expressing an opinion and making a claim are not mutually exclusive. My purpose, since you asked, was to express an opinion.
<br><br>You ask me to draw distinctions between moral issues and legal issues: How do I "feel about abortion and the law." I'm not sure I even understand your question, but from my perspective the law says abortion is legal. I don't agree with the law. Since I don't think laws are intrinsically wrong or right, but are based on conventions that embody the values (morals?? ethics??) of a community, in order to explain why I disagree with the law, I have to invoke my personal values. They just happen to differ with respect to those of the "community."
<br><br>I don't see how you can separate morality and ethics from the law. It seems to me most laws are based on ethical and moral principles. And many times these collide head-on. Is a persons decision to drink alcohol a moral or ethical choice? To some it is, yet the law says it is perfectly legal to possess and drink alcohol. Certainly there are consequences if one drinks too much, or participates in legal behaviors (driving for example) while under the influence of alcohol. Good heavens such a conundrum! It's legal for me to drive, it's legal for me to drink, but I cannot drink and drive! Well of course not because, one could argue, it is immoral and unethical to put other's in harms way by driving while drunk.
<br><br>Is a persons decision to use marijuana a moral or ethical choice? To
some it is, yet the law says it is absolutely illegal to possess and use marijuana. It is not my intent to debate the issues surrounding the legality of marijuana. I simply point out that the law differs on an individuals choice to use two intoxicating substances, and I would suggest this reflects the values of the community. Law and morality intertwined.
<br><br>Lastly, I don't recall anyone referring to my my posts as "immoral". Perhaps some did and I missed it. If providing specific information in response to a specific question in what I had hoped and intended to be a non-judgmental manner is immoral, then I'm guilty as charged. I do find it curious that because some don't like the answers, they find it "morally" acceptable to point the finger at the information provider and say "You cretin! How dare you provide me with information I asked for but with which I don't agree!"
<br><br>Schwaller<br>"No one loves the messenger who brings bad news." <br> --Sophocles<br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 5/22/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Joe Campbell</b> <<a href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
joekc@adelphia.net</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Mr. Schwaller,<br><br>I
find it interesting that, in response to Nick's post, you first claim
that arguments are useless when it comes to changing one's beliefs and
then proceed to offer some arguments of your own! What was your purpose
if not to try to change someone's belief?<br><br>I want to know what
you feel about abortion and the law -- not the moral issue of abortion
but the legal issue. I agree with you about the moral issue but we seem
to be in some disagreement about the legal issue.<br><br>For instance,
I don't see how I can forbid a rape victim from having an abortion
simply because I think that abortion is immoral. I don't see how my
belief should restrict her action in any way. Thus, I'm against laws
restricting abortion (at least until viability) though I might agree
with you that abortion is immoral (though I wouldn't put it that way).<br><br>Here
is an analogy. Some people think that your posts on Sitler were
immoral. Some have expressed on Vision 2020 that you should not have
said the things that you said and clearly the presumption was that they
would never have written those things. Yet that is no basis for
imposing legal restrictions on your posts. Clearly you didn't think
that the posts were immoral and it seems that the fact that others
disagree is and should be irrelevant to whether or not you should have
posted them.<br><br>Of course, if the other people are right, then you
shouldn't have posted your comments about Sitler -- morally speaking.
But it doesn't follow from even this that we should have a law
restricting such posts.<br><br>Lastly, the fact that most pregnancies
are not the result of rape is entirely beside the point in either the
legal or moral debate. Most killings are not instances of self-defense
but it would be absurd to argue on this basis alone that killing in
self-defense is immoral or that it should be illegal. I'm impressed
that you know so many facts about abortion in America but the numbers
and statistics are irrelevant to the moral and legal issues.<br><br>--<br><br>Joe Campbell<br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 13:55:57 -0700<br>From: "Glenn Schwaller" <<a href="mailto:vpschwaller@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
vpschwaller@gmail.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Abortion Reform or holocaust<br>To: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">vision2020@moscow.com
</a><br>Message-ID:<br> <<a href="mailto:323338460705221355q3d9da830x54e5543907e2fb9f@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
323338460705221355q3d9da830x54e5543907e2fb9f@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br><br>Dr Gier,<br><br>I have read your posting, and I have read your complete article.<br><br>
Unfortunately, as in most things of human nature, neither theological, nor<br>scientific, nor logical arguments seem to change ones beliefs or<br>opinions. Witness the Vision2020 website.<br><br>Your article appears to cover a wide range of viewpoints on abortion; a
<br>thorough treatise indeed. However, (and I may be wrong) I doubt many will<br>change their core beliefs because of it. As a group (Catholics, the<br>Government etc.) may adopt different stances on an issue, but I believe this
<br>to be more a reflection of how public opinion changes things (you want my<br>vote, you best get on board) and not how individuals of the group feel or<br>believe.<br><br>We mourn the loss of 4 of own in last weekend's tragedy. I note an article
<br>on page 3 of Monday's MPDN: Report: N. Idaho abortion rate higher than rest<br>of state.<br><br>In 2005 Idaho reported over 22,500 live births across the state. The range<br>in abortions per 1000 ranged from 79 to 206 for that same year. If we take
<br>a median value of about 142 abortions per 1000 births this results in over<br>3000 abortions in 2005, over 8 per day. Twice our loss over the weekend in<br>Moscow per day.<br><br>I, personally, feel abortion to be wrong. At any time post-conception. I
<br>will, however, make a concession to therapeutic abortions when the life of<br>the mother is at risk. I liken this to a self-defense killing. Would I<br>kill someone because they are an "inconvenience" to me? Absolutely not.
<br>Would I kill someone because they threaten my life? In a heartbeat.<br><br>However, I refuse to believe over 3000 abortions performed in Idaho in 2005<br>were therapeutic.<br><br>Rape and/or incest? I cannot justify abortion in those instances. The
<br>National Crime Victimization Study in 2005 reported a little over 64,000<br>rapes in the United States. The medical community suggests around a 5%<br>pregnancy rate for 1-time intercourse, resulting in a little more than 3200
<br>pregnancies as a result of rape and/or incest. Out of over 4 million live<br>births in the US in that same year, this looks to me like about 0.08% can be<br>attributed to rape and/or incest. Enough to justify abortion as a "right"?
<br>For me, no.<br><br>So, what to do with all these unwanted children that would litter our little<br>universe? I'll hold that for another post. In the meantime, I'm sure you<br>Visionaries will give your ideas.
<br><br>Schwaller<br><br>On 5/22/07, <a href="mailto:nickgier@adelphia.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">nickgier@adelphia.net</a> <<a href="mailto:nickgier@adelphia.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
nickgier@adelphia.net</a>> wrote:<br>> Good Morning:<br>><br>> I just listened to yesterday's press conference on the tragedy and I was
<br>very impressed with the composure and professionalism of our city<br>leaders. I especially admired the comment of UI President White and Mayor<br>Chaney. Tom Stroschein's statement was moving and eloquent. The law
<br>enforcement officials were very professional and answered tough questions<br>with thoroughly informed answers.<br>><br>> Out of respect for many on this list, I will hold my draft column on gun<br>control and violence in America for a later date. I do feel an obligation
<br>to meet my KRFP radio commentary deadline for tomorrow and will go ahead<br>with my scheduled topic.<br>><br>> I have added this statement to my recorded talk: "Before I begin I would<br>like to extend my condolences to the families of Officier Bill Newbill, Paul
<br>Bauer, Crystal Hamilton, and Jason Hamilton. It is good news to hear that<br>Officier Brannon Jordan and Peter Hussman will recover from their<br>injuries." Please note that I have not left out Jason Hamilton's
<br>family. They should not be ignored just because of their son's deeds.<br>><br>> A note to ToeKnee: Please hold all comments about me being a Nazi.<br>><br>> CATHOLICS MAY HAVE GOOD REASONS<br>> TO SUPPORT ABORTION REFORM
<br>><br>> First published in the Los Cabos Daily News, May 16, 2007<br>><br>> Read my complete article on abortion at<br><a href="http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/abortion.htm" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/abortion.htm
</a>.<br>><br>> The law does not provide that the act of abortion pertains to homicide,<br>> for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks<br>sensation....<br>> --St. Augustine<br>><br>
> In April of 2007 the Mexico City government voted 46-19 to decriminalize<br>abortion, the first city in Latin America (except Cuba) where elective<br>abortions are now legal. These Countries do allow therapeutic abortions in
<br>the case of rape and a threat to the life of the mother.<br>><br>> A papal envoy sent to the Mexican capital before the vote declared that<br>any Catholic legislator who supported the bill would be excommunicated, but
<br>a large majority ignored the threat. Other scare tactics, such as comparing<br>abortion to suicide bombing, apparently did not work.<br>><br>> Most people do not realize that at one time the Vatican had a less strict
<br>view on abortion. The killing of a first trimester fetus was not murder<br>until a papal decree of 1869, and canon law on this point was not changed<br>until 1917. It is worth noting that over 90 percent of all American
<br>abortions are performed in the first trimester.<br>><br>> Drawing on Greek ideas of fetal development that are partially confirmed<br>by current science, St. Thomas Aquinas believed that the fetus was not a<br>
person until late in pregnancy. The Catholic philosopher Jacques Maritain
<br>declared that "to admit that the human fetus" is a person "from the moment<br>of conception . . . sounds to me like a philosophical absurdity."<br>><br>> The 1917 change in canon law may have been the result of applying genetics
<br>to the abortion issue. Some have argued that the conceptus is a person<br>because it has a unique genetic identity. Most animal fetuses have unique<br>genetic identities, so does this mean that we have to protect their lives as
<br>well?<br>><br>> This argument confuses genetic and personal identity. Twins have the same<br>genetic identity, but they become two different moral and legal persons.<br>With the technology of cloning every cell in the body could be made into
<br>thousands of persons all with the same genetic identity.<br>><br>> It is supremely ironic that the genetic argument completely undermines the<br>idea of the person as a spiritual being. Genetics deals only with the
<br>material body, not our spiritual natures, which are, according to<br>Judeo-Christianity, special creations in "the image of God."<br>><br>> St.Thomas believed that the divine image is implanted late in pregnancy,
<br>not a conception. He concluded that the person "is created by God at the<br>completion of man's coming into being." As surprising as it sounds, the<br>greatest Catholic theologian, declared infallible by Pius IX, would have
<br>agreed with Roe v. Wade.<br>><br>> Not only can Catholics make sound philosophical arguments for abortion<br>reform, they can also make strong practical arguments. Just because<br>abortion is illegal does not mean that it does not happen. The gruesome ways
<br>that it does occur cries out for reform.<br>><br>> The Alan Guttmacher Institute (<a href="http://www.guttmacher.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">www.guttmacher.org</a>
) has estimated that 4<br>million illegal abortions are performed in Latin America each year, and
<br>approximately 800,000 women are hospitalized because of complications<br>resulting from unsafe techniques. It is estimated that 1,500 Mexican women<br>die each year because of clandestine abortions.<br>><br>> The Guttmacher report has made a list of the techniques Latin American
<br>women use because they are not offered safe, legal abortions. These<br>desperate women take caustic substances orally and vaginally, or they insert<br>rubber tubes (sometimes with toxic fluids), wires, knitting needles, or just
<br>sticks.<br>><br>> Compared to an abortion rate of 11 per 1,000 women in Western Europe and<br>26 per 1,000 in the U.S., there are an estimated 37 abortions for every<br>thousand Latin American women. More abortions are performed in Brazil alone
<br>than in the U.S, even though the U.S. has 122 million more people.<br>><br>> The Guttmacher report demonstrated that Latin American abortion rates have<br>dropped since 1980 primarily because of increased use of contraceptives. In
<br>direct opposition to church doctrine, Mexico and Columbia have national<br>family planning programs; and, significantly, they also have the lowest<br>abortion rates in Latin America.<br>><br>> When Pius IX moved personhood back to conception in 1869 that meant that
<br>stricter controls had to be placed on all attempts to prevent fertilization.<br>The double ban on abortion and contraception has been disastrous for women's<br>health in Catholic countries.<br>><br>> Using sound philosophical and practical arguments, Catholics can promote
<br>sex education, systematic family planning programs, and safe, legal<br>abortion. The logic is simple: fewer unwanted pregnancies mean fewer<br>abortions and healthier mothers.<br>><br>><br>> =======================================================
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<br><br>Message: 4<br>Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 14:03:00 -0700<br>From: "Stephanie Kalasz" <<a href="mailto:skalasz@ci.moscow.id.us" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">skalasz@ci.moscow.id.us
</a>><br>Subject: [Vision2020] Press Release - City of Moscow Offices Closed
<br> Friday,
May 25, 2007, From Noon to 5:00 p.m. for Officer Lee
Newbill's<br> Memorial Service<br>To: <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>Message-ID:<br> <
<a href="mailto:7FF17F158107374CB6E4E16ADD5B1250409484@mail1.CI.MOSCOW.ID.US" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
7FF17F158107374CB6E4E16ADD5B1250409484@mail1.CI.MOSCOW.ID.US</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br><br>All city of Moscow offices, except for essential services, will be<br>closed on May 25, 2007, from 12:00
p.m. to 5:00 p.m. to allow city<br>employees to attend the funeral services of their fellow co-worker,<br>Moscow Police Officer Lee Newbill. The funeral of Officer Newbill, who<br>was killed in the line of duty on May 19, 2007, will be held Friday, May
<br>25, 2007, at 1:00 p.m. at the University of Idaho Kibbie Dome.<br><br>The community is invited to attend the funeral services. The community<br>may also share their comments in memory of Officer Newbill by visiting<br>
the city's Web page at<br><a href="http://www.ci.moscow.id.us/Police/LeeNewbill/index.htm" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.ci.moscow.id.us/Police/LeeNewbill/index.htm
</a>.<br><br>Planning for the funeral is being coordinated by area chaplains who are
<br>based out of the Moscow Police Department Substation. Specific<br>questions regarding the services can be directed to the funeral's Public<br>Information Officer Glenn Johnson by calling (509) 432-6894.<br><br><br>
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