[Vision2020] Question for Mr. Schwaller
kjajmix1 at msn.com
Tue May 15 13:55:51 PDT 2007
We are all are responsible for our effect on others. We are not accountable for their sins, by which I mean we are not personally called to account for the added "sin mark" on their metaphorical ledgers.. I may sin in being irresponsible -- causing my sister or brother to stumble -- and for the "sin of being irresponsible," I am accountable. The effect of my being irresponsible (negligent, stupid, etc.) is that in addition to my sin thereof, I have encouraged wrongdoing in someone else -- but if they commit the wrongdoing, that sin itself is theirs. The sin of getting them to that point is mine.keely> From: privatejf32 at hotmail.com> To: vision2020 at moscow.com> Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 12:00:41 -0700> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question for Mr. Schwaller> > "Wilson is accountable to God for what he teaches and who he harms, and > certainly for any deficit in how he handled, and continues to handle, > Sitler's situation. But he is not accountable for Sitler's actions."> > Then how do you account for:> > 1 Corinthians 8:9-12 (New International Version)> New International Version (NIV)> > 9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a > stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if anyone with a weak conscience sees > you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be > emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak > brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 When you > sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you > sin against Christ.> > Just saying.............> > > > J :]> > > > > > >From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>> >To: Bob Herodotus <bherodotus at yahoo.com>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question for Mr. Schwaller> >Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 08:46:23 -0700> >> >> >> >Mr. Herodotus raises some interesting points in framing the debate about > >the release of Steven Sitler and the community's response to it, including > >Tom Hansen's and Wayne Fox's use of hyperbole to express their horror at > >the idea that an untrained pastor can confidently conclude that Sitler is > >"repentant," much less "cured."I caught some flack offlist for writing a > >few days ago that I was not qualified to judge the sincerity of Sitler's > >remorse and repentance. I believe that still, just as I believe that no > >one else but Steven Sitler is qualified to or capable of judging his > >conscience -- not Doug Wilson, not Sitler's parents, not the judge, the > >attorney, his best friend, or anyone other than the God he is accountable > >to. And while this is of interest to those of us who think in terms of > >spirituality and theology, it likely isn't of interest to anyone else, > >because repentance and remorse (and regeneration and redemption), while > >eternal in nature and scope, are entirely different from law. It is the > >law and the circumstances surrounding Sitler's crimes, incarceration, and > >release that ought rightly to concern every one of us.Just as I'm not able > >to say whether or not Sitler is genuinely remorseful for his unspeakable > >crimes against children -- not against "heads of households," but against > >children -- I am also unable to judge if he is a psychopath or a sociopath > >or if he's sick in ways that perhaps defy definition. I'd rather not > >speculate about the link to Wilson's teachings and the Kirk culture Sitler > >was surrounded by and, in doing so, conclude that actual guilt for his > >crimes is anyone's other than Sitler's. That's wrong; besides, it misses > >the point by focusing on Doug Wilson and not on the error and ugliness of > >the theology itself. This is what I was responding to in J Ford's post -- > >that there was a link, and thus a defined moral culpability, on the part of > >Wilson and those from Christ Church who counseled Sitler. I felt the post > >was near-slanderous and otherwise unhelpful to the larger debate, and I > >preferred then, as I do now, to focus on the legal aspects of Sitler's > >culpability and correction while leaving the spiritual and moral aspect of > >his professed remorse in front of an entirely different judge. The parlor > >game of "is he more sick than evil, or more evil than sick?", has not even > >the value of a spirited game of gin rummy with the added toxin of gossip > >and rumormongering. I won't play it.I would rather focus on the truly > >awful handling of Scripture and the bullying behavior toward his community > >demonstrated by Doug Wilson. I believe I've made it pretty clear that I > >find most of Wilson's peculiar teachings and most of his public comportment > >highly objectionable. I also believe that bad theology -- and that by the > >standard of Scripture, not my own sensibilities -- inevitably leads to bad > >practice, and a continued emphasis on patriarchy, male hierarchical > >headship, unbalanced submission and a church culture that appears to value > >covenant over character may have made it easier for Sitler to do what he > >would have eventually done anyway. Still, if Wilson's teachings removed > >some moral barricade that might have slowed him down, the nature of > >pedophilia requires us to acknowledge that Sitler would have finished the > >race regardless. Wilson is responsible for a lot of harm because of his > >teachings; they've taken root in people who bear accountability for any > >tangible harm they've done to others because of their application. Wilson > >is accountable to God for what he teaches and who he harms, and certainly > >for any deficit in how he handled, and continues to handle, Sitler's > >situation. But he is not accountable for Sitler's actions. I wish Steven > >Sitler weren't released, no matter how sincere he is. I remain unalterably > >opposed to the death penalty, I do pray for Sitler and for his victims, and > >I continue in my skepticism that this was handled as well as it should have > >been while steadfastly believing Doug Wilson to be naive at best in gauging > >the depth of Sitler's remorse. Why this hasn't caused people to bolt from > >the Kirk is beyond me. If I were considered, as a married woman, not > >worthy by my elders of receiving direct and timely information regarding > >any possible threat to my children, both Jeff and I would raise the roof > >and level the foundation. I believe acquiescence to error leads to > >acquiescence to evil, and those who think they're being persecuted because > >of their allegiance to Jesus might reexamine their loyalties and find that > >blind acceptance of error and arrogance stems not from following Christ, > >but from following those who amass titles and accolades in His name.keely> > >Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 07:39:20 -0700> From: bherodotus at yahoo.com> To: > >vision2020 at moscow.com> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question for Mr. > >Schwaller> > Dear Mr. Schwaller,> > You would have "staved off some > >ignorance" and "offered up . . . factual information" if you had simply > >replied, "We may never know," and even then you should not have qualified > >your answer with the word "may" because we WILL NEVER KNOW what drives > >Steven Sitler. This is because the man is a psychopath, i.e. he has no > >conscience and no compunction. He lacks the moral capacity to feel right > >and wrong — and he is aggressive. One public record (which the court has > >sealed) documented in explicit detail his rape of a two-year-old girl, in a > >room immediately adjacent to a group of adults. "Perhaps perhaps perhaps," > >you find this flip. I do not; hence my inquiry about the website in > >relation to the so-called apology.> > At best, Steven Sitler did not > >comprehend that the photographs of victims on his website horrified normal, > >decent human beings, which is another way of noting that he is twisted at > >levels no one understands. Consequently, "'cured' is not an option." And > >as "cured" is not an option, then it follows that no one can ever trust him > >under any circumstance, which probably accounts for his constant need to > >have a chaperon, i.e. a court-appointed guardian who will insure that he > >does not wander near children. And if the man is so untrustworthy that > >even "a distressed result from a polygraph is going to bring P&P and the > >court down on him like a ton of Logos Bricks," then it follows that no one > >should believe a word he says, which includes his apologies. Besides, > >somehow the words, "I'm sorry I molested your baby," just don't cut it.> > > >So it is laughable that you attribute remorse, "even if it was not 100% > >heartfelt," to a psychopath, and if this was not so serious it would be > >downright hilarious that you manipulated this seeming remorse into cause > >for demanding an apology from community members who expressed shock at the > >probation of a serial pedophile.> > Since you represent yourself as new to > >the listserv, let me tell you a story. Years ago, Pastor Douglas Wilson > >used to berate this list with the question, "By what standard?" I say > >"used to" because after hectoring and haranguing the community with his > >fixed biblical standard, he proved himself a textbook hypocrite when he > >applied a relative standard to justify the unbiblical thesis of his book > >"Southern Slavery As It Was." It was really quite amusing, though the > >amusement didn't last long. The poor fool ran from here faster than you > >can say "Edna."> > I call these historical facts to your attention, Mr. > >Schwaller, to ask you two questions: First, by what standard do you > >attribute "some modicum of sincerity" to an apology delivered by the > >psychopath Sitler? and by what standard do you ask Messieurs Fox and > >Hansen to apologize?> > Bob Herodotus> > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________Building > >a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools > >to get online.> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting > > > >=======================================================> List services > >made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the > >Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com> > >=======================================================> >_________________________________________________________________> >Add some color. 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