[Vision2020] Question for Mr. Schwaller
J Ford
privatejf32 at hotmail.com
Tue May 15 14:14:18 PDT 2007
Have to disagree with you on that one. Re-read the passage...unless this is
another case of the Bible only being partially correct because it is
convenient to be so, I would say it pretty much lays it out. You sin
against your brother by what you say and/or do and cause him to sin or to
continue to sin, you have sinned against Christ/God.
J :]
>From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
>To: J Ford <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question for Mr. Schwaller
>Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:55:51 -0700
>
>
>We are all are responsible for our effect on others. We are not
>accountable for their sins, by which I mean we are not personally called to
>account for the added "sin mark" on their metaphorical ledgers.. I may sin
>in being irresponsible -- causing my sister or brother to stumble -- and
>for the "sin of being irresponsible," I am accountable. The effect of my
>being irresponsible (negligent, stupid, etc.) is that in addition to my sin
>thereof, I have encouraged wrongdoing in someone else -- but if they commit
>the wrongdoing, that sin itself is theirs. The sin of getting them to that
>point is mine.keely> From: privatejf32 at hotmail.com> To:
>vision2020 at moscow.com> Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 12:00:41 -0700> Subject: Re:
>[Vision2020] Question for Mr. Schwaller> > "Wilson is accountable to God
>for what he teaches and who he harms, and > certainly for any deficit in
>how he handled, and continues to handle, > Sitler's situation. But he is
>not accountable for Sitler's actions."> > Then how do you account for:> > 1
>Corinthians 8:9-12 (New International Version)> New International Version
>(NIV)> > 9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not
>become a > stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if anyone with a weak
>conscience sees > you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple,
>won't he be > emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11 So
>this weak > brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge.
>12 When you > sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak
>conscience, you > sin against Christ.> > Just saying.............> > > > J
>:]> > > > > > >From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>> >To: Bob
>Herodotus <bherodotus at yahoo.com>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>> >Subject: Re:
>[Vision2020] Question for Mr. Schwaller> >Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 08:46:23
>-0700> >> >> >> >Mr. Herodotus raises some interesting points in framing
>the debate about > >the release of Steven Sitler and the community's
>response to it, including > >Tom Hansen's and Wayne Fox's use of hyperbole
>to express their horror at > >the idea that an untrained pastor can
>confidently conclude that Sitler is > >"repentant," much less "cured."I
>caught some flack offlist for writing a > >few days ago that I was not
>qualified to judge the sincerity of Sitler's > >remorse and repentance. I
>believe that still, just as I believe that no > >one else but Steven Sitler
>is qualified to or capable of judging his > >conscience -- not Doug Wilson,
>not Sitler's parents, not the judge, the > >attorney, his best friend, or
>anyone other than the God he is accountable > >to. And while this is of
>interest to those of us who think in terms of > >spirituality and theology,
>it likely isn't of interest to anyone else, > >because repentance and
>remorse (and regeneration and redemption), while > >eternal in nature and
>scope, are entirely different from law. It is the > >law and the
>circumstances surrounding Sitler's crimes, incarceration, and > >release
>that ought rightly to concern every one of us.Just as I'm not able > >to
>say whether or not Sitler is genuinely remorseful for his unspeakable >
> >crimes against children -- not against "heads of households," but against
> > >children -- I am also unable to judge if he is a psychopath or a
>sociopath > >or if he's sick in ways that perhaps defy definition. I'd
>rather not > >speculate about the link to Wilson's teachings and the Kirk
>culture Sitler > >was surrounded by and, in doing so, conclude that actual
>guilt for his > >crimes is anyone's other than Sitler's. That's wrong;
>besides, it misses > >the point by focusing on Doug Wilson and not on the
>error and ugliness of > >the theology itself. This is what I was
>responding to in J Ford's post -- > >that there was a link, and thus a
>defined moral culpability, on the part of > >Wilson and those from Christ
>Church who counseled Sitler. I felt the post > >was near-slanderous and
>otherwise unhelpful to the larger debate, and I > >preferred then, as I do
>now, to focus on the legal aspects of Sitler's > >culpability and
>correction while leaving the spiritual and moral aspect of > >his professed
>remorse in front of an entirely different judge. The parlor > >game of "is
>he more sick than evil, or more evil than sick?", has not even > >the value
>of a spirited game of gin rummy with the added toxin of gossip > >and
>rumormongering. I won't play it.I would rather focus on the truly > >awful
>handling of Scripture and the bullying behavior toward his community >
> >demonstrated by Doug Wilson. I believe I've made it pretty clear that I
> > >find most of Wilson's peculiar teachings and most of his public
>comportment > >highly objectionable. I also believe that bad theology --
>and that by the > >standard of Scripture, not my own sensibilities --
>inevitably leads to bad > >practice, and a continued emphasis on
>patriarchy, male hierarchical > >headship, unbalanced submission and a
>church culture that appears to value > >covenant over character may have
>made it easier for Sitler to do what he > >would have eventually done
>anyway. Still, if Wilson's teachings removed > >some moral barricade that
>might have slowed him down, the nature of > >pedophilia requires us to
>acknowledge that Sitler would have finished the > >race regardless. Wilson
>is responsible for a lot of harm because of his > >teachings; they've taken
>root in people who bear accountability for any > >tangible harm they've
>done to others because of their application. Wilson > >is accountable to
>God for what he teaches and who he harms, and certainly > >for any deficit
>in how he handled, and continues to handle, Sitler's > >situation. But he
>is not accountable for Sitler's actions. I wish Steven > >Sitler weren't
>released, no matter how sincere he is. I remain unalterably > >opposed to
>the death penalty, I do pray for Sitler and for his victims, and > >I
>continue in my skepticism that this was handled as well as it should have >
> >been while steadfastly believing Doug Wilson to be naive at best in
>gauging > >the depth of Sitler's remorse. Why this hasn't caused people
>to bolt from > >the Kirk is beyond me. If I were considered, as a married
>woman, not > >worthy by my elders of receiving direct and timely
>information regarding > >any possible threat to my children, both Jeff and
>I would raise the roof > >and level the foundation. I believe acquiescence
>to error leads to > >acquiescence to evil, and those who think they're
>being persecuted because > >of their allegiance to Jesus might reexamine
>their loyalties and find that > >blind acceptance of error and arrogance
>stems not from following Christ, > >but from following those who amass
>titles and accolades in His name.keely> > >Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 07:39:20
>-0700> From: bherodotus at yahoo.com> To: > >vision2020 at moscow.com> Subject:
>Re: [Vision2020] Question for Mr. > >Schwaller> > Dear Mr. Schwaller,> >
>You would have "staved off some > >ignorance" and "offered up . . . factual
>information" if you had simply > >replied, "We may never know," and even
>then you should not have qualified > >your answer with the word "may"
>because we WILL NEVER KNOW what drives > >Steven Sitler. This is because
>the man is a psychopath, i.e. he has no > >conscience and no compunction.
>He lacks the moral capacity to feel right > >and wrong — and he is
>aggressive. One public record (which the court has > >sealed) documented
>in explicit detail his rape of a two-year-old girl, in a > >room
>immediately adjacent to a group of adults. "Perhaps perhaps perhaps," >
> >you find this flip. I do not; hence my inquiry about the website in >
> >relation to the so-called apology.> > At best, Steven Sitler did not >
> >comprehend that the photographs of victims on his website horrified
>normal, > >decent human beings, which is another way of noting that he is
>twisted at > >levels no one understands. Consequently, "'cured' is not an
>option." And > >as "cured" is not an option, then it follows that no one
>can ever trust him > >under any circumstance, which probably accounts for
>his constant need to > >have a chaperon, i.e. a court-appointed guardian
>who will insure that he > >does not wander near children. And if the man
>is so untrustworthy that > >even "a distressed result from a polygraph is
>going to bring P&P and the > >court down on him like a ton of Logos
>Bricks," then it follows that no one > >should believe a word he says,
>which includes his apologies. Besides, > >somehow the words, "I'm sorry I
>molested your baby," just don't cut it.> > > >So it is laughable that you
>attribute remorse, "even if it was not 100% > >heartfelt," to a psychopath,
>and if this was not so serious it would be > >downright hilarious that you
>manipulated this seeming remorse into cause > >for demanding an apology
>from community members who expressed shock at the > >probation of a serial
>pedophile.> > Since you represent yourself as new to > >the listserv, let
>me tell you a story. Years ago, Pastor Douglas Wilson > >used to berate
>this list with the question, "By what standard?" I say > >"used to"
>because after hectoring and haranguing the community with his > >fixed
>biblical standard, he proved himself a textbook hypocrite when he >
> >applied a relative standard to justify the unbiblical thesis of his book
> > >"Southern Slavery As It Was." It was really quite amusing, though the
> > >amusement didn't last long. The poor fool ran from here faster than
>you > >can say "Edna."> > I call these historical facts to your attention,
>Mr. > >Schwaller, to ask you two questions: First, by what standard do you
> > >attribute "some modicum of sincerity" to an apology delivered by the >
> >psychopath Sitler? and by what standard do you ask Messieurs Fox and >
> >Hansen to apologize?> > Bob Herodotus> > > > > > >
> >____________________________________________________________________________________Building
> > >a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the
>tools > >to get online.> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting > > >
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