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We are all are responsible for our effect on others. We are not accountable for their sins, by which I mean we are not personally called to account for the added "sin mark" on their metaphorical ledgers.. I may sin in being irresponsible -- causing my sister or brother to stumble -- and for the "sin of being irresponsible," I am accountable. The effect of my being irresponsible (negligent, stupid, etc.) is that in addition to my sin thereof, I have encouraged wrongdoing in someone else -- but if they commit the wrongdoing, that sin itself is theirs. The sin of getting them to that point is mine.<br><br>keely<br><br>> From: privatejf32@hotmail.com<br>> To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 12:00:41 -0700<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question for Mr. Schwaller<br>> <br>> "Wilson is accountable to God for what he teaches and who he harms, and <br>> certainly for any deficit in how he handled, and continues to handle, <br>> Sitler's situation. But he is not accountable for Sitler's actions."<br>> <br>> Then how do you account for:<br>> <br>> 1 Corinthians 8:9-12 (New International Version)<br>> New International Version (NIV)<br>> <br>> 9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a <br>> stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if anyone with a weak conscience sees <br>> you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be <br>> emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak <br>> brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 When you <br>> sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you <br>> sin against Christ.<br>> <br>> Just saying.............<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> J :]<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> >From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1@msn.com><br>> >To: Bob Herodotus <bherodotus@yahoo.com>, <vision2020@moscow.com><br>> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question for Mr. Schwaller<br>> >Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 08:46:23 -0700<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> >Mr. Herodotus raises some interesting points in framing the debate about <br>> >the release of Steven Sitler and the community's response to it, including <br>> >Tom Hansen's and Wayne Fox's use of hyperbole to express their horror at <br>> >the idea that an untrained pastor can confidently conclude that Sitler is <br>> >"repentant," much less "cured."I caught some flack offlist for writing a <br>> >few days ago that I was not qualified to judge the sincerity of Sitler's <br>> >remorse and repentance. I believe that still, just as I believe that no <br>> >one else but Steven Sitler is qualified to or capable of judging his <br>> >conscience -- not Doug Wilson, not Sitler's parents, not the judge, the <br>> >attorney, his best friend, or anyone other than the God he is accountable <br>> >to. And while this is of interest to those of us who think in terms of <br>> >spirituality and theology, it likely isn't of interest to anyone else, <br>> >because repentance and remorse (and regeneration and redemption), while <br>> >eternal in nature and scope, are entirely different from law. It is the <br>> >law and the circumstances surrounding Sitler's crimes, incarceration, and <br>> >release that ought rightly to concern every one of us.Just as I'm not able <br>> >to say whether or not Sitler is genuinely remorseful for his unspeakable <br>> >crimes against children -- not against "heads of households," but against <br>> >children -- I am also unable to judge if he is a psychopath or a sociopath <br>> >or if he's sick in ways that perhaps defy definition. I'd rather not <br>> >speculate about the link to Wilson's teachings and the Kirk culture Sitler <br>> >was surrounded by and, in doing so, conclude that actual guilt for his <br>> >crimes is anyone's other than Sitler's. That's wrong; besides, it misses <br>> >the point by focusing on Doug Wilson and not on the error and ugliness of <br>> >the theology itself. This is what I was responding to in J Ford's post -- <br>> >that there was a link, and thus a defined moral culpability, on the part of <br>> >Wilson and those from Christ Church who counseled Sitler. I felt the post <br>> >was near-slanderous and otherwise unhelpful to the larger debate, and I <br>> >preferred then, as I do now, to focus on the legal aspects of Sitler's <br>> >culpability and correction while leaving the spiritual and moral aspect of <br>> >his professed remorse in front of an entirely different judge. The parlor <br>> >game of "is he more sick than evil, or more evil than sick?", has not even <br>> >the value of a spirited game of gin rummy with the added toxin of gossip <br>> >and rumormongering. I won't play it.I would rather focus on the truly <br>> >awful handling of Scripture and the bullying behavior toward his community <br>> >demonstrated by Doug Wilson. I believe I've made it pretty clear that I <br>> >find most of Wilson's peculiar teachings and most of his public comportment <br>> >highly objectionable. I also believe that bad theology -- and that by the <br>> >standard of Scripture, not my own sensibilities -- inevitably leads to bad <br>> >practice, and a continued emphasis on patriarchy, male hierarchical <br>> >headship, unbalanced submission and a church culture that appears to value <br>> >covenant over character may have made it easier for Sitler to do what he <br>> >would have eventually done anyway. Still, if Wilson's teachings removed <br>> >some moral barricade that might have slowed him down, the nature of <br>> >pedophilia requires us to acknowledge that Sitler would have finished the <br>> >race regardless. Wilson is responsible for a lot of harm because of his <br>> >teachings; they've taken root in people who bear accountability for any <br>> >tangible harm they've done to others because of their application. Wilson <br>> >is accountable to God for what he teaches and who he harms, and certainly <br>> >for any deficit in how he handled, and continues to handle, Sitler's <br>> >situation. But he is not accountable for Sitler's actions. I wish Steven <br>> >Sitler weren't released, no matter how sincere he is. I remain unalterably <br>> >opposed to the death penalty, I do pray for Sitler and for his victims, and <br>> >I continue in my skepticism that this was handled as well as it should have <br>> >been while steadfastly believing Doug Wilson to be naive at best in gauging <br>> >the depth of Sitler's remorse. Why this hasn't caused people to bolt from <br>> >the Kirk is beyond me. If I were considered, as a married woman, not <br>> >worthy by my elders of receiving direct and timely information regarding <br>> >any possible threat to my children, both Jeff and I would raise the roof <br>> >and level the foundation. I believe acquiescence to error leads to <br>> >acquiescence to evil, and those who think they're being persecuted because <br>> >of their allegiance to Jesus might reexamine their loyalties and find that <br>> >blind acceptance of error and arrogance stems not from following Christ, <br>> >but from following those who amass titles and accolades in His name.keely> <br>> >Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 07:39:20 -0700> From: bherodotus@yahoo.com> To: <br>> >vision2020@moscow.com> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question for Mr. <br>> >Schwaller> > Dear Mr. Schwaller,> > You would have "staved off some <br>> >ignorance" and "offered up . . . factual information" if you had simply <br>> >replied, "We may never know," and even then you should not have qualified <br>> >your answer with the word "may" because we WILL NEVER KNOW what drives <br>> >Steven Sitler. This is because the man is a psychopath, i.e. he has no <br>> >conscience and no compunction. He lacks the moral capacity to feel right <br>> >and wrong — and he is aggressive. One public record (which the court has <br>> >sealed) documented in explicit detail his rape of a two-year-old girl, in a <br>> >room immediately adjacent to a group of adults. "Perhaps perhaps perhaps," <br>> >you find this flip. I do not; hence my inquiry about the website in <br>> >relation to the so-called apology.> > At best, Steven Sitler did not <br>> >comprehend that the photographs of victims on his website horrified normal, <br>> >decent human beings, which is another way of noting that he is twisted at <br>> >levels no one understands. Consequently, "'cured' is not an option." And <br>> >as "cured" is not an option, then it follows that no one can ever trust him <br>> >under any circumstance, which probably accounts for his constant need to <br>> >have a chaperon, i.e. a court-appointed guardian who will insure that he <br>> >does not wander near children. And if the man is so untrustworthy that <br>> >even "a distressed result from a polygraph is going to bring P&P and the <br>> >court down on him like a ton of Logos Bricks," then it follows that no one <br>> >should believe a word he says, which includes his apologies. Besides, <br>> >somehow the words, "I'm sorry I molested your baby," just don't cut it.> > <br>> >So it is laughable that you attribute remorse, "even if it was not 100% <br>> >heartfelt," to a psychopath, and if this was not so serious it would be <br>> >downright hilarious that you manipulated this seeming remorse into cause <br>> >for demanding an apology from community members who expressed shock at the <br>> >probation of a serial pedophile.> > Since you represent yourself as new to <br>> >the listserv, let me tell you a story. Years ago, Pastor Douglas Wilson <br>> >used to berate this list with the question, "By what standard?" I say <br>> >"used to" because after hectoring and haranguing the community with his <br>> >fixed biblical standard, he proved himself a textbook hypocrite when he <br>> >applied a relative standard to justify the unbiblical thesis of his book <br>> >"Southern Slavery As It Was." It was really quite amusing, though the <br>> >amusement didn't last long. The poor fool ran from here faster than you <br>> >can say "Edna."> > I call these historical facts to your attention, Mr. <br>> >Schwaller, to ask you two questions: First, by what standard do you <br>> >attribute "some modicum of sincerity" to an apology delivered by the <br>> >psychopath Sitler? and by what standard do you ask Messieurs Fox and <br>> >Hansen to apologize?> > Bob Herodotus> > > > > > <br>> >____________________________________________________________________________________Building <br>> >a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools <br>> >to get online.> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting > > <br>> >=======================================================> List services <br>> >made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the <br>> >Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net <br>> > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com> <br>> >=======================================================<br>> >_________________________________________________________________<br>> >Add some color. Personalize your inbox with your favorite colors.<br>> >www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/personalize.html?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_HMWL_reten_addcolor_0507<br>> <br>> <br>> >=======================================================<br>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> > http://www.fsr.net<br>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> >=======================================================<br>> <br>> _________________________________________________________________<br>> More photos, more messages, more storage—get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. <br>> http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507<br>> <br><br /><hr />Add some color. Personalize your inbox with your favorite colors. <a href='www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/personalize.html?locale=en-us&ocid=RMT_TAGLM_HMWL_reten_addcolor_0507' target='_new'>Try it!</a></body>
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