[Vision2020] Give Sitler a Chance: Response to Comments

[Art Deco]

Mr. Schwaller,

First, I am quite aware that some describe the problem of the pedophilia using the sophisticated language that you suggest:

"Mr. Sitler will probably never be "cured" - most people suffering from a deviancy or "addiction" (not my word - I believe that terms such as sex addiction or food addiction are inaccurate and without meaning, and those who use them don't understand the meaning of "addiction" - but that is another topic) cannot be "cured."  The best one can hope is that the individual learns what triggers the desire, and has learned how to effectively use the thought processing and behavioral modification tools they have been given in therapy  to remove themselves from the situation and reduce the desires and impulses.  Think "reformed alcoholic or drug user" who is presented with a chance do drink or get high.  Most are never "cured" in the sense they can ever drink or use drugs again without falling into the destructive spiral of abuse.  So the idea that Mr. Sitler has been cured by his year in jail and therapy is rather inaccurate."

A simpler way of saying this is "some people learn to recognize and to control their urges, others not."  It would be hard to believe that Sitler did not know that he had urges to sexually interact with children in the ways that he did.  I do hope that he has completely mastered how to control those urges.

In any case your argument is simply about our different uses of the word "cured."  A friend of mind from high school became an alcoholic shortly after graduation.  He has now been a very moderate drinker for about 40 years.  I would consider him cured in the ordinary use of the word.  He was very strongly motivated to cure his problem by some very traumatic events in his life.

The real problem is this.  We do not yet completely understand the nature of different addictions or propensities for deviant behavior.  Hence, therapies for many of these not yet very successful for some cases despite the hype from some professionals in the fields dealing with these issues, particularly when soliciting business.  In the case of pedophiles, the recidivism rate is generally found to be high even among those undergoing therapy -- at least that what testified to in another case of a similar nature.  In Denmark, studies indicate voluntary castration of male offenders seems to have a pronounced effect on the recidivism rate.

Further, as with any unhealthy propensity, there are wide ranges among individuals afflicted with such propensities in the parameters of (a) strength of the propensity and (b) the strength of the desire to deal with it.  The stronger the urge, the weaker the desire to control it, the less likely the probability of success of therapy.


As for use of the term "cultmaster," I believe it accurately reflects reality.  If you like, I can repost the general criteria used in trying to decide whether an organization is a cult or not.  But again, you are free to choose whatever definition suits your purposes.

As I am sure you are aware, the congregants of Christ Church are told they are "saints" under the Calvinistic aspects of their leader's theology.  The behavior of the upper hierarchy of the cult is anything but saint-like.  Hence, the phrase "No Saints Around" reflects the realistic belief that the term "saints" as applied to contrast cult members from the rest of us "sinners" is quite egregiously misapplied.  You may not like plain speaking.  I cannot recommend a therapy for that.

The tone and content of your posts have changed in a rather revealing way.  Perhaps, you can try to recreate the impression of not having a dog in this fight or of not being personally involved by commenting on the substantive parts of Ms. Fellon's words and/or the substantive parts of my previous post including:


"I greatly hope that Sitler does not re-offend.  The world does not need new victims or recycled victims of these defiling, and sometimes life-altering crimes.  [Another issue raised by Ms. Fellon:  Do the weak sentencing conditions in this case forward general deterrence or provide sufficient retribution?]

 

However, the reality is that predicting whether a particular offender will re-offend or not re-offend is very risky business.  It seems to me to be very, very risky business when the offenses are numerous, over a long period of time, over wide areas, and where the offender kept a photographic trophy website including some of his victims.

 

I do not wish to disparage Probation and Parole.  However, they are overburdened and as such their effectiveness is not at its peak.  And as to polygraph tests, they may or may not be helpful.  Googling can allow those interested to find suggestions of successful ways to beat polygraph tests.  Pedophiles are sometimes gifted with great guile.  That is part of the reason they can escape detection for a long time or even ever.  I am not assured that Probation and Parole or any one else for that matter including a professional counselor is a match for a determined pedophile's guile.

 

Therefore, given the risky nature of predicting whether re-offenses will occur or not, then in my opinion, the error of assessing risk should be strongly on the side of protecting children and the community."



On the issues of pedophilia some of the content of your posts have been very instructive and helpful.  If we can continue to discuss those issues rather than things like literary style, perhaps we might further the cause in this community of reducing the incidence of pedophilia and its painful consequences for all.

W.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Glenn Schwaller" <vpschwaller at gmail.com>
To: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Give Sitler a Chance: Response to Comments


> Mr Fox,
> 
> For all I know, you might seriously suggest that a convicted pedophile
> be allowed around children.  Particularly children related to a person
> you seem to seriously dislike, to the point of juvenile name calling.
> The fact you refer to it as a "modest proposal" simply underscores the
> seriousness of your inability to see the damage to civility and common
> sense I think you have caused.
> 
> Had I off-listed a response to you, I would have been one of those
> recognizing your proposal was irony.  It was irony.  It was just in my
> opinion, offensive and inappropriate.  To compare your modest proposal
> with that of Jonathan Swift boggles my mind.
> 
> You state that "Mr. Schwaller takes me to  task for being a name
> caller with respect to convicted pedophile Steven  Sitler.  His
> objection was to my use  of the phrase
> 
>  "to prove that Sitler has been cured of his habit of debauching children".
> 
> Your name calling had nothing to do with you referring to Mr Sitler as
> a debaucher of children.  I was objecting specifically to your use of
> "Cultmaster" along with all the other posters who use terms such as
> "Dougie-Boy," reference to NSA as No Saints Around etc etc etc.  I
> guess that was the proverbial straw.  This name calling serves no
> purpose other than to reduce your comments to so much blather.  I find
> it "ironic" that in a town with such a wealth of intellect, so many
> resort to childish tactics to make themselves heard.  Well we hear
> you.  I don't think many of us pay you heed.
> 
> If you read my post carefully, you will note I was attempting to point
> out that, contrary to your assumption, I don't believe Doug Wilson et
> al. think Mr Sitler is "cured."  I haven't seen anything suggesting
> that Doug Wilson, NSA, Christ's Church, Mr Sitler's attorney or his
> counselors believe him to be cured.  If I missed that, my mistake.  My
> intention was to give some education on this point of  "cured."  I'm
> sorry if you missed it.  Given the fact you brought up this point
> again at the end of your post (. . . should Sitler demonstrate  that
> he is not "cured" despite all their assurances.) it seems you can't or
> don't want to understand that "cured" is not an option in any sex
> offense case.
> 
> Schwaller
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/14/07,  Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Glenn, Saundra, Keely, et  al,
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a response to  several comments made about my modest proposal with respect to pedophile Steven  Sitler:
>>
>>
>>
>> "Wilson could petition the court to allow Sitler  to board at his daughter's and son-in-law's (the Merkle's) home with their horde  of children for the next two or three years."
>>
>>
>>
>> I have received a number of  off-list responses about this proposal.   All of those responders recognized that my proposal was irony and extreme  irony at that.  Not only was the  posting irony, but irony heavily laden with  sub-text.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would never seriously  suggest that any convicted pedophile or even any person with a probable  propensity towards sexually abusing children be allowed anywhere near them, and  in fact, quite the contrary.  I had  hoped that anyone who has read my previous postings on this subject would have  seen see that.
>>
>>
>>
>> I no more meant to suggest  that a person with pedophilic tendencies be placed around children than Jonathan  Swift would seriously suggest that we eat cook and children, the ironic thesis  of his essay A Modest Proposal.
>>
>>
>>
>> To those that do not think  that pedophilia should be the subject of irony:  We disagree.  In this case, irony was not used to poke  fun at anyone, especially the numerous, unfortunate victims of Sitler.  Irony, especially irony with sub-text,  is sometimes an effective means making a point.  This time, some got it, others not.  Some appeared to choose to intentionally  misinterpret it.
>>
>>
>>
>> In addition, although the  prosecutor and the court have seemed to have evinced great gullibility in this  case, the probability that they would ever even consider such a horrendous  proposal is very close to zero.
>>
>>
>>
>> That said, I apologize for  the lack of clarity in my writing that caused some to sincerely take it as a  serious proposal or an attempt to make fun of the victim's of  pedophilia.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mr. Schwaller takes me to  task for being a name caller with respect to convicted pedophile Steven  Sitler.  His objection was to my use  of the phrase
>>
>>
>>
>> "to prove that Sitler has been  cured of his habit of debauching children"
>>
>>
>>
>> Although there is  absolutely no doubt that I have been and will be a name caller on Vision 2020,  this instance is not one of  them.
>>
>>
>>
>> One of the problems in  dealing with child sexual abuse is that many truly concerned people are  unwilling to discuss it openly and/or to discuss it in candidly descriptive  terms.  I present some excerpts from  the Sitler case file below.  Readers  can decide if the "habit of debauching  children" is name calling or an accurate description of Steven Sitler's  actions.
>>
>>
>>
>> From:    Case No. Cr-2005-02027, RULE 11 PLEA AGREEMENT
>>
>>
>>
>>  2.          The State agrees that it will not recommend a sentence greater than a  judgment of conviction with the court retaining jurisdiction. The prosecuting  attorney has been made aware by counsel for the defendant that the volume and  extent of acts by the defendant are greater than the investigator's  documentation. The prosecuting attorney has also been made aware by  counsel for the defendant that similar acts occurred in connection with minors now residing in other  states. The State agrees that it will not charge Steven  James Sitler with any other  crimes of a similar nature to Lewd Conduct with a Minor Under Sixteen Years of  Age based on facts he discloses in connection with this  case.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  Dear Mr.  Thompson:
>>
>>
>>
>>  I have reviewed the Rule II  Plea Agreement in State v. Steven Sitler, Cause [sic] No. CR-2005-02027,  specifically paragraphs 2 and 3.   I find that both paragraphs  accurately stale my position in this matter, wherein no charges will be pursued  concerning disclosed Stevens County victims for crimes  similar to Lewd  Conduct with a Minor Under Sixteen Years of Age.
>>
>>
>>
>>  /s/
>>
>>  John G.  Wetle
>>
>>  Prosecuting Attorney for  Stevens  County
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  From:    Letter to Judge Stegner from a victim's parents
>>
>>
>>
>>  Steven has admitted to several  incidents of sexual perversion. We  personally only know of the full details of his molestation of our daughter,  Elizabeth. When  she was only two years old, Steven offered to take her downstairs and watch her  while the adults were talking upstairs. At that time he forced her to kiss his  erect penis. It was painful enough to be told of the perversion that  Steven committed against Elizabeth yet now we have watched for the last  six months as an admitted child molester has been living in the comforts of his  parent's home, whiling away the days that should be spent in jail.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Please notice the use of  plurals in the language above and make the clear inference.  In addition, the original NO CONTACT  order issued in this case (from which I will not quote) contains some other  information which generates inferences not inconsistent with that  above.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> There are many questions  about the handling of this case starting with the initial spawning incident to  the court hearing last week.  Time  now does not permit me to write a comprehensive  review.
>>
>>
>>
>> But from another  document:
>>
>>
>>
>> The case was marked by an egregiously lax law enforcement  investigation including a six month "escape" from local jurisdiction while the  case was being adjudicated, a much less than stellar prosecutor, very cozy  cronyism between law enforcement, the prosecutor, and the pastor (read:  cultmaster) of a so-called Christian  church (read:  cult) of which the  pedophile was a participant, boarder, and student, and no press coverage before  or while the case was in the adjudicated stages.  [Steven Sitler was the second sexual  offender outed from the so-called Christian college, New Saint Andrews (an  adjunct of the church (cult)), in a very short time.  Many locals wonder if these two  represent only the tip of a large iceberg.]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have another question  about the trophy website, especially given Mr. Schwaller contention that the  court was not made aware of this during the original and revised sentencing but  was aware of before last week's hearing.
>>
>>
>>
>> The original plea bargain  contained the language:
>>
>>
>>
>> This plea agreement  is based upon the facts and circumstances as  they  exist at the date of the signing of this  agreement.
>>
>>
>>
>> This seems to indicate that  the original omission of this trophy site evidence would be grounds for a  reevaluation of the appropriateness of the original plea bargain and original  and revised sentences.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here's another issue which  greatly bothers me:  During the  pre-sentence process, the State's expert witnesses presented strong evidence  that Sitler was a high risk.   Sitler's paid expert witness presented a rebuttal to these  contentions.  When I reviewed the  file (before it was eviscerated by the court), there was no counter-rebuttal  offered by the prosecutor.  Aside  from the obvious inference about the prosecutor's lack of action, I am left to  wonder how the State's expert witnesses felt about  this.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I congratulate the Daily News (Saturday, May 12, 2007) for  finally discussing parts of this case.
>>
>>
>>
>> The following probably  mirrors the concerns of many persons much more eloquently than I ever  could:
>>
>>
>>
>> Sue Fellon, executive director  of the Idaho Coalition Against Sexual and Domestic Violence, said the time sex  offenders serve ultimately depends on the severity of the case and the sentence  that was handed down.
>>
>>
>>
>> "When someone gets a life sentence and only does a little  over a year, treatment certainly cannot be monitored during that short of time,"  she said. "I think the jury's still out on (whether) treatment helps  everybody."
>>
>>
>>
>> She said there is no guarantee treatment will keep those  convicted of sex offenses from re-offending.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Pedophiles choose a child and  are seeking power and control," Fellon said. "(They) made a choice, nobody makes  them do it."
>>
>>
>>
>> She said pedophiles usually  aren't the type to cause problems in prison and generally are well-behaved,  which may help some get out early for good  behavior.
>>
>>
>>
>> Fellon said there's a message  sent to victims when offenders are released early.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Victims of sex abuse and  assault often choose not to report and go through all this," she said. "This is  another threat on the pile. (Sitler) gets a slap on the hand; you'd get more  prison time if you got a couple of DUIs."
>>
>>
>>
>> She said the system is there to  help the victim, but offenders often are treated with more  compassion.
>>
>>
>>
>> Fellon said it's the victims  who end up serving the life sentence because they must live with the crime for  the rest of their lives.
>>
>>
>>
>> I greatly hope that Sitler  does not re-offend.  The world does  not need new victims or recycled victims of these defiling, and sometimes  life-altering crimes.  [Another  issue raised by Ms. Fellon:  Do the  weak sentencing conditions in this case forward general deterrence or provide  sufficient retribution?]
>>
>>
>>
>> However, the reality is  that predicting whether a particular offender will re-offend or not re-offend is  very risky business.  It seems to me  to be very, very risky business when the offenses are numerous, over a long  period of time, over wide areas, and where the offender kept a photographic  trophy website including some of his victims.
>>
>>
>>
>> I do not wish to disparage  Probation and Parole.  However, they  are overburdened and as such their effectiveness is not at its peak.  And as to polygraph tests, they may or  may not be helpful.  Googling can  allow those interested to find suggestions of successful ways to beat polygraph  tests.  Pedophiles are sometimes  gifted with great guile.  That is  part of the reason they can escape detection for a long time or even ever.  I am not assured that Probation and  Parole or any one else for that matter including a professional counselor is a  match for a determined pedophile's guile.
>>
>>
>>
>> Therefore, given the risky  nature of predicting whether re-offenses will occur or not, then in my opinion,  the error of assessing risk should be strongly on the side of protecting  children and the community.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am not convinced in this  case that if Sitler re-offends, that he (a) will be caught, and (b) if caught,  will be reported to law enforcement given the nature of the cult to which he has  been entrusted, and the huge loss they would suffer should Sitler demonstrate  that he is not "cured" despite all their assurances.  [Perhaps, those that understood the some  of the sub-text in the original ironic post have all ready picked this  up.]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If nothing else, I hope  this continuing discussion provides motivation for all of use to encourage the  construction of a world where pedophilia does not occur, and if it does, it  propagators are dealt with swiftly, effectively, and with justice for all, but  especially for the victims.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> /s/ Wayne A. Fox
>>
>>
>>
>> Wayne A.  Fox
>>
>> 1009 Karen  Lane
>>
>> P.O.  Box  9421
>>
>> Moscow, ID  83843
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> (208) 882-7975
>>
>> waf at moscow.com
>>
>>
>> =======================================================
>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>                 http://www.fsr.net
>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20070514/12c38c3b/attachment-0001.html