[Vision2020] What about the kids? (was Weitz isacivicterrorist??

Wed May 9 18:06:07 PDT 2007

First Gary, you are missing in your analysis the percentage of employees who are working under a written personnel policy which includes layoff procedures.  Personnel polices create an enforceable, implied contract whether the employer is in an "at will" state or not.  How many large corporations would or could operate today without a comprehensive personnel policy?  The legal problems, let alone the operational, recruitment, and hiring problems would cripple the corporation in short order.  While you are Googling, you can find copies of the personnel policies of many large corporations or the pro forma documents from which they are derived.  Perhaps you might read some of them.

As to union membership, I have written before that smart businesses avoid unionization and their attendant problems by offering the same or more to employees in terms pay, benefits, job protection, etc.  This is one main reason union membership is dropping.

So when you tell us the percentage of truly "at will" employees, not just employees in "at will" states in the workplace instead of restricting your statistics to unions, the conclusions people draw from your skewed presentation from a very questionable source*** will be quite different.

Here is where we may be in some agreement:  There is little doubt that certain aspects of public school contracts are in need of some rework.  This is especially true of the tenure system in universities, public or private.  However, some of the worst examples of tenure occur in certain private industries such as the railroads, e.g. feather bedding.  

One reason that unionization is higher in public sector jobs is that employees in the public sector are more at risk from arbitrary actions spawned in part by political or despotic (not uncommon in educational environments) motives.  We have just seen a sterling example of this from the Attorney General.  However, it is possible for some governmental bodies to operate without union representation of employees.  Those bodies only need to do what smart businesses do:  [repeat] offer the same or more to employees in terms pay, benefits, working environment, job protection, etc. 

***Incidentally, if you were to go to http://www.quizlaw.com/ the home page of your initial source, you will find that it is in reality a rather eclectic blog.  Further, if you search for any evidence of qualifications of who is writing the material you cite or even the names of those writing the material you cite, you will find the following:

ABOUT US 
QuizLaw.com represents QuizLaw Partnership's vision to provide the general public with a free and easy to use resource for finding understandable legal information without all the "legalese." The information provided here has been prepared by attorneys located in Massachusetts and New York based upon their experience in, and with, the legal profession.

QuizLaw strives to keep this information as up to date as possible, as well as to expand the content to include new information that matters to you, the public. Please feel free to contact us with suggestions or comments about this site. [http://www.quizlaw.com/def/about_us.php]

Further if you were to Google QuizLaw Partnership in an attempt to identify the authors/owners of this site, here would be the results (two):
QuizLaw: ABOUT US
      QuizLaw.com represents QuizLaw Partnership's vision to provide the general public with a free and easy to use resource for finding understandable legal ...
      www.quizlaw.com/def/about_us.php - 9k - Cached - Similar pages 

100000pounds.com - Links
      Quiz Law (4, Mar, 2007 at 8:19 AM) - QuizLaw.com represents QuizLaw Partnership's vision to provide the general public with a free and easy to use resource ...
      www.100000pounds.com/site.php/link/category/legal_finance1/tax_insurance/ - Similar pages

      And still further, if your were to try to find the name of the domain owner of http://www.quizlaw.com/, here would be the results:

      c/o QUIZLAW.COM
         P.O. Box 821650
         Vancouver, WA  98682
         US

         Registrar: DOTSTER
         Domain Name: QUIZLAW.COM
            Created on: 15-AUG-05
            Expires on: 15-AUG-07
            Last Updated on: 30-JAN-07

         Administrative Contact:
            QUIZLAW.COMigSnrv at privacypost.com
            c/o QUIZLAW.COM
            P.O. Box 821650
            Vancouver, WA  98682
            US
            +1.360-449-5933

         Technical Contact:
            QUIZLAW.COMLYnjiX at privacypost.com
            c/o QUIZLAW.COM
            P.O. Box 821650
            Vancouver, WA  98682
            US
            +1.360-449-5933

Perhaps you might find it singular that owner of the anonymous site purporting to present information from "attorneys located in Massachusetts and  New York" is only known by a reference to a Post Office box in Vancouver, Washington.  Have some fun for yourself trying to identify the possessor of the telephone number given.  If you have any sense of humor at all, you will thoroughly enjoy yourself, although if you are offended by X-Rated material, you might give this task a skip.

It is curious that of all the websites available discussing labor law and specifically layoff law, you chose to present part of your material from what is basically an anonymous site whose home page is a blog.  Reader's can draw their own conclusions about the credibility of your claim based on that source that "most employees are" "at will".  Perhaps my advanced senescence is crippling me again, but I seem to recall that in previous posts you were quite contemptuous of anonymous authors.  Has this now changed?

In addition, you have obviously confused the conditions for firings for cause (which are also covered by employment contracts and/or personnel policies) as opposed to the conditions for the processes and procedures for layoffs.

Therefore, most of the above material is basically irrelevant because you have so far presented absolutely no evidence to counter the claim that:

"In the real world" except in small companies without employee contracts in "at will" states layoffs seldom, if ever, achieve laying off the worst performers, nor can they even accomplish this due to legal restrictions and other considerations.  Those that maintain the myth the "layoff the worst performers" such can be accomplished are either ignorant, delusional, or lying phonies.

As usual, you have attempted to evade the issue which I attempted to state reasonably clearly about layoffs by addressing another subject (firings) entirely.

If you are able to present clear and cogent evidence from an identifiable and credible source that "in the real world" layoffs (not firings) remove the worst performers******, please do.  It will certainly be an education for most seasoned managers in large corporations and one for a lot of very good employees that have suffered a layoff or two while woefully watching some much less skilled persons putter on fully employed.

Your humble servant,

W.

******PS:  I might also point out to counter a universal statement such as "in the real world layoffs remove the worst performers" only a single counterexample is necessary.  http://www.answers.com/topic/falsifiability

I mention this little factoid so that your response does not occasion the necessity of another simple logic lesson.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: g. crabtree 
To: Art Deco ; Vision 2020 
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] What about the kids? (was Weitz isacivicterrorist??

A cursory Google search turns up:

"If you are an at-will employee as most employees are, you can be fired for almost any reason or no reason at all; however, in most instances, employees are fired for insubordination, chronic lateness, incompetence, poor quality of work, failing to follow work rules, low productivity, bad attitude, or just because your employer doesn't like you (so long as that dislike is not related to an illegal discriminatory reason)."

http://www.quizlaw.com/hremployment_law/what_reasons_does_my_employer.php
Needless to say this does not apply to Wayne's magical world of the union shop, a realm that includes many school districts and municipalities. A realm that is so full of sunshine and lollipops that union membership has been dropping steadily:

  "In 2006, 12.0 percent of employed wage and salary workers were union
members, down from 12.5 percent a year earlier, the U.S. Department of
Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today.  The number of persons
belonging to a union fell by 326,000 in 2006 to 15.4 million.  The union
membership rate has steadily declined from 20.1 percent in 1983, the first
year for which comparable union data are available."

--Workers in the public sector had a union membership rate nearly
       five times that of private sector employees.

 --Education, training, and library occupations had the highest
       unionization rate among all occupations, at 37 percent.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

Two different worlds? You decide.

g

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Art Deco 
  To: Vision 2020 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 11:28 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] What about the kids? (was Weitz isacivicterrorist??

  I have not seen a copy of Weitz's lawsuit nor researched any appropriate related law.  I have read the DN and LMT accounts. However, my confidence in the accuracy of their reporting on this matter is about the same as my confidence in the accuracy of their reporting on the latest advances in limnology.

  That said, in the discussions so far on V 2020, there has been an incredible amount of gross ignorance exhibited by certain parties.  For example, though the following issue does not speak to the legal merits of Weitz's action, it never-the-less presented an opportunity for two bitterness-consumed posters to expose their elementary cluelessness.

  Gary Crabtree wrote:

  "In response to Donovan and his comment "If  teachers have to go, it should be the ones that perform worst. That is the way the real world works." The real world and the world where teachers unions exist do not even share the same time/space continuum."

  There are so many errors in these two sentences that it is beyond the time limits given my advanced age to expose them adequately.

  First of all, layoffs "in the real world" are quite complicated and in many businesses (which I assume unfettered free-enterprise proponent Crabtree is referring to as the "real world" as usual), it is not legally possible to lay off "the ones that perform worse" even if the "worst ones" could be objectively identified.

  The manner, order, and choices in layoffs in the United States are determined by direct contract agreements (as in a union contract, for example), by an implied contract in the form of a written personnel policy, by applicable laws and case law, and/or by other considerations and restrictions.

  In most union shops, layoff order, by contract, is determined by seniority within department with seniority bumping rights into any other position in any other department for which an employee is qualified.  Most large non-unionized corporations follow approximately the same procedure.  Except in "at will" states like Idaho and where in a particular situation no real or implied employee contract exists, employees have acquired property rights in their work positions, and hence are entitled to all the legal protections that adhere to such rights.  Additionally, many states have laws whose provisions impact the how and who of layoffs.  Certain federal laws also impact layoff decisions.

  I have had experience in this field as a non-management employee in companies going through layoffs, as a member of the management team in similar situations, and as a consultant helping businesses optimally and correctly navigate the complicated waters of a layoff.  During the two mid-eastern oil crises in the 1970s, there was a plethora of companies that were forced by practical business consideration to make both temporary and permanent work force reductions.  I was employed by three and gave consulting help to several others.

  You needn't take my word for the above complexities of layoffs.  Googling "layoff law" or "layoff procedure" will present many opportunities to learn.

  There is also the problem of identifying who the worst performers in any organization are.  How do you tell?  What objective criteria are to be applied in this decision?  How do you tell if these criteria are valid?  And whose fault is it when an employee is not performing as expected?

  Before we get evasions from disagreers, here's are some words about the single issue addressed in this post:  I am not saying there are not some poor performers in the MSD or that the MSD layoff procedures are perfect.

  Here's what I am saying.  "In the real world" except in small companies without employee contracts in "at will" states layoffs seldom, if ever, achieve laying off the worst performers, nor can they even accomplish this due to legal restrictions and other considerations.  Those that maintain the myth the "layoff the worst performers" such can be accomplished are either ignorant, delusional, or lying phonies.

  Since Donovan's experience in the real world, especially in the world of enterprise, seems to be limited as witnessed by his many witless statements, and given his propensity for making a wedding gown and six bridesmaid's dress from a mote of lint, few will take him seriously on this or other issues.  Except in cases where his ignorance is likely to mislead some who are not familiar with a given topic, it is counterproductive to even respond to his self-satisfying, substitute masturbatory, bitter posts.  His problem is between himself and his alienist.

  However, with Gary things are a bit different.  He has presented himself as a freedom loving libertarian and a champion of free enterprise, and has allied himself of others of similar mind like Dale Courtney.  If one is to champion free enterprise, one ought exhibit at least some fundamental understanding of how it currently works, instead of exhibiting abysmal ignorance.  He an Donovan now make a set of two posters where fantasy, bitterness, and evasion are their stock in trade instead of facts and reason based discourse.

  I repeat (more or less) from before:

  When it comes to political or ideological viewpoints, there has yet to be developed a reliable, agreed upon method to separate the true from the false (if that is even possible).  Such things are always subject to debate at this point, but sometimes progress toward mutual agreement is made.  Misleading ruses, absurdities, evasions, ignorance, egoism, obtuseness, stubbornness, lack of courage, etc obscure and stifle rather than forward progress toward agreement in these areas.  

  Wayne A. Fox
  1009 Karen Lane
  PO Box 9421
  Moscow, ID  83843

  (208) 882-7975
  waf at moscow.com

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: g. crabtree 
  To: g. crabtree ; Tom Ivie ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 6:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] What about the kids? (was Weitz isacivicterrorist??

  Actually, after giving the Big Deals program a little more thought I do see a way it could be turned into an effective teaching tool. Take the entire MSD operating budget (include federal monies as well as funds for boondoggles such as Head Start, DARE, USDA school lunch programs, Diversity training, etc. Every nickel spent directly or indirectly on education) and divide it up equally amongst all the youth in the district and then let them take it where they will get the most bang for their buck. St. Mary's, Logos or back home to their parents. Those who feel that MSD is the pinnacle of education can take it there and receive their kickback.

  In response to Donovan and his comment "If  teachers have to go, it should be the ones that perform worst. That is the way the real world works." The real world and the world where teachers unions exist do not even share the same time/space continuum. In NEA/IEA land deadwood floats, administration bloats, and union officials gloat. There only connection to the world you and I live in is through the pipeline we pass them a large and ever increasing portion of our paychecks.

  g
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