[Vision2020] What about the kids? (was Weitz isacivicterrorist??
g. crabtree
jampot at adelphia.net
Wed May 9 15:45:27 PDT 2007
A cursory Google search turns up:
"If you are an at-will employee as most employees are, you can be fired for almost any reason or no reason at all; however, in most instances, employees are fired for insubordination, chronic lateness, incompetence, poor quality of work, failing to follow work rules, low productivity, bad attitude, or just because your employer doesn't like you (so long as that dislike is not related to an illegal discriminatory reason)."
http://www.quizlaw.com/hremployment_law/what_reasons_does_my_employer.php
Needless to say this does not apply to Wayne's magical world of the union shop, a realm that includes many school districts and municipalities. A realm that is so full of sunshine and lollipops that union membership has been dropping steadily:
"In 2006, 12.0 percent of employed wage and salary workers were union
members, down from 12.5 percent a year earlier, the U.S. Department of
Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. The number of persons
belonging to a union fell by 326,000 in 2006 to 15.4 million. The union
membership rate has steadily declined from 20.1 percent in 1983, the first
year for which comparable union data are available."
--Workers in the public sector had a union membership rate nearly
five times that of private sector employees.
--Education, training, and library occupations had the highest
unionization rate among all occupations, at 37 percent.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm
Two different worlds? You decide.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Art Deco
To: Vision 2020
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] What about the kids? (was Weitz isacivicterrorist??
I have not seen a copy of Weitz's lawsuit nor researched any appropriate related law. I have read the DN and LMT accounts. However, my confidence in the accuracy of their reporting on this matter is about the same as my confidence in the accuracy of their reporting on the latest advances in limnology.
That said, in the discussions so far on V 2020, there has been an incredible amount of gross ignorance exhibited by certain parties. For example, though the following issue does not speak to the legal merits of Weitz's action, it never-the-less presented an opportunity for two bitterness-consumed posters to expose their elementary cluelessness.
Gary Crabtree wrote:
"In response to Donovan and his comment "If teachers have to go, it should be the ones that perform worst. That is the way the real world works." The real world and the world where teachers unions exist do not even share the same time/space continuum."
There are so many errors in these two sentences that it is beyond the time limits given my advanced age to expose them adequately.
First of all, layoffs "in the real world" are quite complicated and in many businesses (which I assume unfettered free-enterprise proponent Crabtree is referring to as the "real world" as usual), it is not legally possible to lay off "the ones that perform worse" even if the "worst ones" could be objectively identified.
The manner, order, and choices in layoffs in the United States are determined by direct contract agreements (as in a union contract, for example), by an implied contract in the form of a written personnel policy, by applicable laws and case law, and/or by other considerations and restrictions.
In most union shops, layoff order, by contract, is determined by seniority within department with seniority bumping rights into any other position in any other department for which an employee is qualified. Most large non-unionized corporations follow approximately the same procedure. Except in "at will" states like Idaho and where in a particular situation no real or implied employee contract exists, employees have acquired property rights in their work positions, and hence are entitled to all the legal protections that adhere to such rights. Additionally, many states have laws whose provisions impact the how and who of layoffs. Certain federal laws also impact layoff decisions.
I have had experience in this field as a non-management employee in companies going through layoffs, as a member of the management team in similar situations, and as a consultant helping businesses optimally and correctly navigate the complicated waters of a layoff. During the two mid-eastern oil crises in the 1970s, there was a plethora of companies that were forced by practical business consideration to make both temporary and permanent work force reductions. I was employed by three and gave consulting help to several others.
You needn't take my word for the above complexities of layoffs. Googling "layoff law" or "layoff procedure" will present many opportunities to learn.
There is also the problem of identifying who the worst performers in any organization are. How do you tell? What objective criteria are to be applied in this decision? How do you tell if these criteria are valid? And whose fault is it when an employee is not performing as expected?
Before we get evasions from disagreers, here's are some words about the single issue addressed in this post: I am not saying there are not some poor performers in the MSD or that the MSD layoff procedures are perfect.
Here's what I am saying. "In the real world" except in small companies without employee contracts in "at will" states layoffs seldom, if ever, achieve laying off the worst performers, nor can they even accomplish this due to legal restrictions and other considerations. Those that maintain the myth the "layoff the worst performers" such can be accomplished are either ignorant, delusional, or lying phonies.
Since Donovan's experience in the real world, especially in the world of enterprise, seems to be limited as witnessed by his many witless statements, and given his propensity for making a wedding gown and six bridesmaid's dress from a mote of lint, few will take him seriously on this or other issues. Except in cases where his ignorance is likely to mislead some who are not familiar with a given topic, it is counterproductive to even respond to his self-satisfying, substitute masturbatory, bitter posts. His problem is between himself and his alienist.
However, with Gary things are a bit different. He has presented himself as a freedom loving libertarian and a champion of free enterprise, and has allied himself of others of similar mind like Dale Courtney. If one is to champion free enterprise, one ought exhibit at least some fundamental understanding of how it currently works, instead of exhibiting abysmal ignorance. He an Donovan now make a set of two posters where fantasy, bitterness, and evasion are their stock in trade instead of facts and reason based discourse.
I repeat (more or less) from before:
When it comes to political or ideological viewpoints, there has yet to be developed a reliable, agreed upon method to separate the true from the false (if that is even possible). Such things are always subject to debate at this point, but sometimes progress toward mutual agreement is made. Misleading ruses, absurdities, evasions, ignorance, egoism, obtuseness, stubbornness, lack of courage, etc obscure and stifle rather than forward progress toward agreement in these areas.
Wayne A. Fox
1009 Karen Lane
PO Box 9421
Moscow, ID 83843
(208) 882-7975
waf at moscow.com
----- Original Message -----
From: g. crabtree
To: g. crabtree ; Tom Ivie ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] What about the kids? (was Weitz isacivicterrorist??
Actually, after giving the Big Deals program a little more thought I do see a way it could be turned into an effective teaching tool. Take the entire MSD operating budget (include federal monies as well as funds for boondoggles such as Head Start, DARE, USDA school lunch programs, Diversity training, etc. Every nickel spent directly or indirectly on education) and divide it up equally amongst all the youth in the district and then let them take it where they will get the most bang for their buck. St. Mary's, Logos or back home to their parents. Those who feel that MSD is the pinnacle of education can take it there and receive their kickback.
In response to Donovan and his comment "If teachers have to go, it should be the ones that perform worst. That is the way the real world works." The real world and the world where teachers unions exist do not even share the same time/space continuum. In NEA/IEA land deadwood floats, administration bloats, and union officials gloat. There only connection to the world you and I live in is through the pipeline we pass them a large and ever increasing portion of our paychecks.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: g. crabtree
To: Tom Ivie ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] What about the kids? (was Weitz is acivicterrorist??
No more "Big Deals (a quarterly incentive program used by some teachers to encourage good behavior, performance, etc."
What? So not only do I have to fork over my hard earned to pay for teachers and too many administrators but now I also have to pay to keep kids in the seats via a monetary pay out also commonly referred to as a bribe? When did this become an effective teaching tool? Apparently the MSD employees won't be happy till they get the class sizes down to four per teacher and the quartet that shows up is paid a living wage. Enough already!
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Ivie
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] What about the kids? (was Weitz is a civicterrorist??
It also has required the school district to freeze all funds. That means no field trips, Big Deals (a quarterly incentive program used by some teachers to encourage good behavior, performance, etc.), and no contracts for teachers with 1-3 yrs experience. Luckily, the school district's lawyer is from the firm that has written the book on education law in Idaho, literally; The Law of Education in Idaho by Anderson, Julian & Hull, LLP. Unfortunately, it negatively affects the kids NOW. Any donation to your local public school or class of choice would probably be well accepted for those end of the year activities.
Something else that concerns me is that the three names that have been cited in connection with this attack on our school district (Jerry Weitz, Jim Demeeleer, and Brian Thie) are all listed on the "leadership" of the Greater Moscow Alliance. Does this action represent the "Alliance" or is it just a coincidence. I would add that I would be just as critical or at least question it if the same happened in regards with the Moscow Civic Association. I don't happen to be a member of either group. They say that business and politics don't mix. There is a good reason; you can lose business!
Bill London <london at moscow.com> wrote:
G-
your question: "If Dr. Weitz's claim has no legal merit, then why would MSD have any concern?"
my response: a huge amount of administrative time and a sizable chunk of money (as in paid by local taxes to the district) will have to be used to fight this suit. Of course the district, and its patrons, are concerned.
BL
----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn Schwaller
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:10 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Weitz is a civic terrorist?
Ms. Emerinemix,
I don't know if there is any merit to Dr. Weitz's claim. I believe that the foundation for any argument is "is this position valid?" With something as complex and potentially dangerous and damaging as the illlegality of a tax-based ballot measure, I have no problem with someone questions its validity. Dr. Weitz has wisely chosen to use the law to determine if his claim has merit. Many will discount this as "frivolity" and cite a laundry list of reasons based on gut-wrenching emotion (oh the poor kids! The poor teachers! The poor administration!) and avoid considering a more insidious outcome of allowing a group to unfairly and inappropriately tax the public for whatever it is they want (be it schools, roads, parks, athletic centers). This potentially could set a precedence by which any group could do the same thing. If Dr. Weitz's claim has no legal merit, then why would MSD have any concern? I for one would rather see the law surrounding this issue clearly delineated than to see some other, possibly more unsavory group, use the same tactics to fund their particular interest.
Schwaller
"The bigger they are, the harder they fall on you"
Mark Knopfler
----------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have not seen a copy of Weitz's lawsuit nor researched any appropriate related law. I have read the DN and LMT accounts. However, my confidence in the accuracy of their reporting on this matter is about the same as my confidence in the accuracy of their reporting on the latest advances in limnology.
That said, in the discussions so far on V 2020, there has been an incredible amount of gross ignorance exhibited by certain parties. For example, though the following issue does not speak to the legal merits of Weitz's action, it never-the-less presented an opportunity for two bitterness-consumed posters to expose their elementary cluelessness.
Gary Crabtree wrote:
"In response to Donovan and his comment "If teachers have to go, it should be the ones that perform worst. That is the way the real world works." The real world and the world where teachers unions exist do not even share the same time/space continuum."
There are so many errors in these two sentences that it is beyond the time limits given my advanced age to expose them.
First of all, layoffs "in the real world" are quite complicated and in many businesses (which I assume unfettered free-enterprise proponent Crabtree is referring to as usual), it is not legally possible to lay off "the ones that perform worse" even if the "worst ones" could be objectively identified.
The manner, order, and choices in layoffs are determined by direct contract agreements (as in a union contract, for example), by an implied contract in the form of a written personnel policy, by applicable laws and case law, and/or by other considerations and restrictions.
In most union shops, layoff order by contract is determined by seniority within department with seniority bumping rights into any other position in any other department for which an employee is qualified. Most large non-unionized corporations follow approximately the same procedure. Except in "at will" states like Idaho and where in a particular situation no real or implied employee contract exists, employees have acquired property rights in their work positions, and hence are entitled to all the legal protections that adhere to such rights. Additionally, many states have laws whose provisions impact the how and who of layoffs.
I have had experience in this field as a non-management employee in companies going through layoffs, as a member of the management team in similar situations, and as a consultant helping businesses optimally and correctly navigate the complicated waters of a layoff. During the two mid-eastern oil crises in the 1970s, there was a plethora of companies that were forced by practical business consideration to make both temporary and permanent work force reductions. I was employed by three and gave consulting help to several others.
You needn't take my word for the above complexities of layoffs. Googling "layoff law" or "layoff procedure" will present many opportunities to learn.
There is also the problem of identifying who the worst performers in any organization are. How do you tell? What objective criteria are to be applied in this decision? How do you tell if these criteria are valid? And whose fault is it when an employee is not performing as expected?
Before we get evasions from disagreers, here's are some words about the single issue addressed in this post: I am not saying there are not some poor performers in the MSD or that the MSD layoff procedures are perfect.
Here's what I am saying. "In the real world" except in small companies without employee contracts in "at will" states layoffs seldom, if ever, achieve laying off the worst performers, nor can they even accomplish this due to legal restrictions and other considerations. Those that maintain the myth the "layoff the worst performers" such can be accomplished are either ignorant, delusional, or lying phonies.
Since Donovan's experience in the real world, especially in the world of enterprise, seems to be limited as witnessed by his witless statements, and given his propensity for making a wedding gown and six bridesmaid's dress from a mote of lint, few will take him seriously on this or other issues. Except in cases where his ignorance is likely to mislead some who are not familiar with a given topic, it is counterproductive to even respond to his self-satisfying, substitute masturbatory, bitter posts. His problem is between himself and his alienist.
However, with Gary things are a bit different. He has presented himself as a freedom loving libertarian and a champion of free enterprise and allied himself of others of similar mind like Dale Courtney. If one is to champion free enterprise, one ought exhibit at least some fundamental understanding of how it currently works, instead of exhibiting abysmal ignorance. He an Donovan now make a set of two posters where fantasy, bitterness, and evasion are their stock in trade instead of facts and reason based discourse.
I repeat from before:
When it comes to political or ideological viewpoints, there has yet to be developed a method to separate the true from the false (if that is even possible). Such things are always subject to debate at this point, but sometimes progress toward mutual agreement is made. Misleading ruses, absurdities, evasions, [add ignorance], etc obscure and stifle rather than forward progress toward agreement in these areas.
Wayne A. Fox
1009 Karen Lane
PO Box 9421
Moscow, ID 83843
(208) 882-7975
waf at moscow.com
----- Original Message -----
From: g. crabtree
To: g. crabtree ; Tom Ivie ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] What about the kids? (was Weitz isacivicterrorist??
Actually, after giving the Big Deals program a little more thought I do see a way it could be turned into an effective teaching tool. Take the entire MSD operating budget (include federal monies as well as funds for boondoggles such as Head Start, DARE, USDA school lunch programs, Diversity training, etc. Every nickel spent directly or indirectly on education) and divide it up equally amongst all the youth in the district and then let them take it where they will get the most bang for their buck. St. Mary's, Logos or back home to their parents. Those who feel that MSD is the pinnacle of education can take it there and receive their kickback.
In response to Donovan and his comment "If teachers have to go, it should be the ones that perform worst. That is the way the real world works." The real world and the world where teachers unions exist do not even share the same time/space continuum. In NEA/IEA land deadwood floats, administration bloats, and union officials gloat. There only connection to the world you and I live in is through the pipeline we pass them a large and ever increasing portion of our paychecks.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: g. crabtree
To: Tom Ivie ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] What about the kids? (was Weitz is acivicterrorist??
No more "Big Deals (a quarterly incentive program used by some teachers to encourage good behavior, performance, etc."
What? So not only do I have to fork over my hard earned to pay for teachers and too many administrators but now I also have to pay to keep kids in the seats via a monetary pay out also commonly referred to as a bribe? When did this become an effective teaching tool? Apparently the MSD employees won't be happy till they get the class sizes down to four per teacher and the quartet that shows up is paid a living wage. Enough already!
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Ivie
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] What about the kids? (was Weitz is a civicterrorist??
It also has required the school district to freeze all funds. That means no field trips, Big Deals (a quarterly incentive program used by some teachers to encourage good behavior, performance, etc.), and no contracts for teachers with 1-3 yrs experience. Luckily, the school district's lawyer is from the firm that has written the book on education law in Idaho, literally; The Law of Education in Idaho by Anderson, Julian & Hull, LLP. Unfortunately, it negatively affects the kids NOW. Any donation to your local public school or class of choice would probably be well accepted for those end of the year activities.
Something else that concerns me is that the three names that have been cited in connection with this attack on our school district (Jerry Weitz, Jim Demeeleer, and Brian Thie) are all listed on the "leadership" of the Greater Moscow Alliance. Does this action represent the "Alliance" or is it just a coincidence. I would add that I would be just as critical or at least question it if the same happened in regards with the Moscow Civic Association. I don't happen to be a member of either group. They say that business and politics don't mix. There is a good reason; you can lose business!
Bill London <london at moscow.com> wrote:
G-
your question: "If Dr. Weitz's claim has no legal merit, then why would MSD have any concern?"
my response: a huge amount of administrative time and a sizable chunk of money (as in paid by local taxes to the district) will have to be used to fight this suit. Of course the district, and its patrons, are concerned.
BL
----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn Schwaller
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:10 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Weitz is a civic terrorist?
Ms. Emerinemix,
I don't know if there is any merit to Dr. Weitz's claim. I believe that the foundation for any argument is "is this position valid?" With something as complex and potentially dangerous and damaging as the illlegality of a tax-based ballot measure, I have no problem with someone questions its validity. Dr. Weitz has wisely chosen to use the law to determine if his claim has merit. Many will discount this as "frivolity" and cite a laundry list of reasons based on gut-wrenching emotion (oh the poor kids! The poor teachers! The poor administration!) and avoid considering a more insidious outcome of allowing a group to unfairly and inappropriately tax the public for whatever it is they want (be it schools, roads, parks, athletic centers). This potentially could set a precedence by which any group could do the same thing. If Dr. Weitz's claim has no legal merit, then why would MSD have any concern? I for one would rather see the law surrounding this issue clearly delineated than to see some other, possibly more unsavory group, use the same tactics to fund their particular interest.
Schwaller
"The bigger they are, the harder they fall on you"
Mark Knopfler
----------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
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