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<DIV>First Gary, you are missing in your analysis the percentage of
employees who are working under a written personnel policy which includes layoff
procedures. Personnel polices create an enforceable, implied contract
whether the employer is in an "at will" state or not. How many large
corporations would or could operate today without a comprehensive personnel
policy? The legal problems, let alone the operational, recruitment, and
hiring problems would cripple the corporation in short order. While you
are Googling, you can find copies of the personnel policies of many large
corporations or the <EM>pro forma</EM> documents from which they are
derived. Perhaps you might read some of them.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As to union membership, I have written before that smart
businesses avoid unionization and their attendant problems by offering the same
or more to employees in terms pay, benefits, job protection, etc. This is
one main reason union membership is dropping.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So when you tell us the percentage of truly "at will" employees, not
just employees in "at will" states in the workplace instead of
restricting your statistics to unions, the conclusions people draw from your
skewed presentation from a very questionable source<STRONG><FONT
color=#ff0000>***</FONT></STRONG> will be quite different.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Here is where we may be in some agreement: There is little doubt that
certain aspects of public school contracts are in need of some
rework. This is especially true of the tenure system in universities,
public or private. However, some of the worst examples of tenure occur in
certain private industries such as the railroads, e.g. feather bedding.
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>One reason that unionization is higher in public sector jobs is that
employees in the public sector are more at risk from arbitrary actions spawned
in part by political or despotic (not uncommon in educational environments)
motives. We have just seen a sterling example of this from the Attorney
General. However, it is possible for some governmental bodies to operate
without union representation of employees. Those bodies only need to do
what smart businesses do: [repeat] offer the same or more to
employees in terms pay, benefits, working environment, job protection,
etc. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>***</FONT></STRONG>Incidentally, if you were to
go to <A
href="http://www.quizlaw.com/hremployment_law/what_reasons_does_my_employer.php"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>http://www.quizlaw.com/</FONT></A> the home page of your
initial source, you will find that it is in reality a rather eclectic
blog. Further, if you search for any evidence of qualifications of who is
writing the material you cite or even the names of those writing the
material you cite, you will find the following:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV>Further if you were to Google QuizLaw Partnership in an attempt to identify
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<DIV><FONT size=-1>Quiz Law (4, Mar, 2007 at 8:19 AM) - QuizLaw.com
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana>Perhaps you might find
it singular that owner of the anonymous site purporting to present
information from <FONT color=#0000ff>"attorneys located in Massachusetts
and New York" <FONT color=#000000>is only known by a reference to a Post
Office box in </FONT></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff>Vancouver,
Washington. </FONT><FONT color=#000000>Have some fun
for yourself trying to identify the possessor of the telephone number
given. If you have any sense of humor at all, you will thoroughly enjoy
yourself, although if you are offended by X-Rated material, you might give this
task a skip.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana
size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana
size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3><STRONG>It is curious
that of all the websites available discussing labor law and specifically layoff
law, you chose to present part of your material from what is basically an
anonymous site whose home page is a blog.</STRONG> Reader's can draw their
own conclusions about the credibility of your claim based on that
source that <FONT color=#0000ff>"most employees are" "at
will"</FONT>. Perhaps my advanced senescence is crippling me again, but I
seem to recall that in previous posts you were quite contemptuous of anonymous
authors. Has this now changed?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3>In addition, you have
obviously confused the conditions for <STRONG><FONT
color=#0000ff>firings</FONT></STRONG> for cause (which are also covered by
employment contracts and/or personnel policies) as opposed to the conditions for
the processes and procedures for <FONT
color=#ff0000><STRONG>layoffs</STRONG></FONT>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3>Therefore, most of
the above material is basically irrelevant because you have so
far presented absolutely no evidence to counter the claim
that:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3><STRONG>"In the <FONT
color=#0000ff>real world</FONT>" except in small companies without employee
contracts in "at will" states <FONT color=#ff0000>layoffs</FONT> seldom, if
ever, achieve<FONT color=#ff0000> laying off</FONT> the worst performers, nor
can they even accomplish this due to legal restrictions and other
considerations.</STRONG> Those that maintain the myth the
"<STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>layoff</FONT> </STRONG>the worst
performers" such can be accomplished are either ignorant, delusional, or
lying phonies.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3>As usual, you have
attempted to evade the issue which I attempted to state reasonably clearly about
<STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>layoffs</FONT></STRONG> by addressing another
subject (<STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff>firings</FONT></STRONG>)
entirely.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3>If you are able
to present clear and cogent evidence from an identifiable and credible
source that <FONT color=#0000ff>"in the real world"</FONT> <FONT
color=#ff0000><STRONG>layoffs</STRONG></FONT> (not firings) remove the worst
performers<STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>******</FONT></STRONG>, please do.
It will certainly be an education for most seasoned managers in large
corporations and one for a lot of very good employees that have suffered a
layoff or two while woefully watching some much less skilled persons putter on
fully employed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3>Your humble
servant,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3>W.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3><STRONG><FONT
color=#ff0000>******</FONT></STRONG>PS: I might also point out to counter
a universal statement such as "in the real world layoffs remove the worst
performers" only a single counterexample is necessary. <A
href="http://www.answers.com/topic/falsifiability">http://www.answers.com/topic/falsifiability</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3>I mention this little
factoid so that your response does not occasion the necessity of another simple
logic lesson.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=jampot@adelphia.net href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net">g. crabtree</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=deco@moscow.com href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">Art
Deco</A> ; <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 09, 2007 3:45 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] What about the kids? (was Weitz
isacivicterrorist??</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A cursory Google search turns up:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"If you are an <FONT color=#2d70b4>at-will
employee</FONT> as most employees are, you can be fired for almost any
reason or no reason at all; however, in most instances, employees are fired for
insubordination, chronic lateness, incompetence, poor quality of work, failing
to follow work rules, low productivity, bad attitude, or just because your
employer doesn’t like you (so long as that dislike is not related to an illegal
discriminatory reason)."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><A
href="http://www.quizlaw.com/hremployment_law/what_reasons_does_my_employer.php">http://www.quizlaw.com/hremployment_law/what_reasons_does_my_employer.php</A></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV id=entry>
<P>Needless to say this does not apply to Wayne's magical world of the
union shop, a realm that includes many school districts and municipalities.
A realm that is so full of sunshine and lollipops that union
membership has been dropping steadily:</P>
<P> "In 2006, 12.0 percent of employed wage and salary workers were
union<BR>members, down from 12.5 percent a year earlier, the U.S. Department
of<BR>Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. The number of
persons<BR>belonging to a union fell by 326,000 in 2006 to 15.4 million.
The union<BR>membership rate has steadily declined from 20.1 percent in 1983,
the first<BR>year for which comparable union data are available."</P>
<P>--Workers in the public sector had a union membership rate
nearly<BR> five times that of private sector
employees.<BR></P>
<P> --Education, training, and library occupations had the
highest<BR> unionization rate among all
occupations, at 37 percent.<BR></P>
<P><A
href="http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm">http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm</A></P>
<P>Two different worlds? You decide.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>g</P>
<P> </P></DIV><!-- google_ad_section_end --></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=deco@moscow.com href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">Art Deco</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 09, 2007 11:28
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] What about the
kids? (was Weitz isacivicterrorist??</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I have not seen a copy of Weitz's lawsuit nor researched any appropriate
related law. I have read the <EM>DN</EM> and <EM>LMT</EM> accounts.
However, my confidence in the accuracy of their reporting on this matter is
about the same as my confidence in the accuracy of their reporting on the
latest advances in limnology.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>That said, in the discussions so far on V 2020, there has been an
incredible amount of gross ignorance exhibited by certain parties. For
example, though the following issue does not speak to the legal merits of
Weitz's action, it never-the-less presented an opportunity for two
bitterness-consumed posters to expose their elementary cluelessness.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Gary Crabtree wrote:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial size=2>"In response to Donovan and
his comment "</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>If teachers have
to go, it should be the ones that perform worst. <STRONG><FONT size=4>That is
the way the real world works.</FONT></STRONG>" <FONT face=Arial size=2>The
real world and the world where teachers unions exist do not even share the
same time/space continuum."</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There are so many errors in these two sentences that it is beyond the
time limits given my advanced age to expose them adequately.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>First of all, layoffs "in the <FONT color=#0000ff>real world</FONT>" are
quite complicated and in many businesses (which I assume unfettered
free-enterprise proponent Crabtree is referring to as the <FONT
color=#0000ff>"real world"</FONT> as usual), it is <STRONG>not</STRONG>
legally possible to lay off <FONT color=#0000ff>"the ones that perform worse"
</FONT>even if the "worst ones" could be objectively identified.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The manner, order, and choices in layoffs in the United States are
determined by direct contract agreements (as in a union contract, for
example), by an implied contract in the form of a written personnel policy, by
applicable laws and case law, and/or by other considerations and
restrictions.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In most union shops, layoff order, by contract, is determined by
seniority within department with seniority bumping rights into any other
position in any other department for which an employee is qualified.
Most large non-unionized corporations follow approximately the same
procedure. Except in "at will" states like Idaho and where in a
particular situation no real or implied employee contract exists, employees
have acquired <STRONG>property </STRONG>rights in their work positions, and
hence are entitled to all the legal protections that adhere to such
rights. Additionally, many states have laws whose provisions impact the
how and who of layoffs. Certain federal laws also impact layoff
decisions.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I have had experience in this field as a non-management employee in
companies going through layoffs, as a member of the management team in similar
situations, and as a consultant helping businesses optimally and correctly
navigate the complicated waters of a layoff. During the two mid-eastern
oil crises in the 1970s, there was a plethora of companies that were forced by
practical business consideration to make both temporary and permanent work
force reductions. I was employed by three and gave consulting
help to several others.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You needn't take my word for the above complexities of layoffs.
Googling "layoff law" or "layoff procedure" will present many
opportunities to learn.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There is also the problem of identifying who the worst performers in any
organization are. How do you tell? What objective criteria are to
be applied in this decision? How do you tell if these criteria are
valid? And whose fault is it when an employee is not performing as
expected?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Before we get evasions from disagreers, here's are some words about the
single issue addressed in this post: I am <STRONG>not</STRONG> saying
there are not some poor performers in the MSD or that the MSD layoff
procedures are perfect.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Here's what I am saying. <STRONG> "In the <FONT color=#0000ff>real
world</FONT>" except in small companies without employee contracts in "at
will" states layoffs seldom, if ever, achieve laying off the worst performers,
nor can they even accomplish this due to legal restrictions and other
considerations.</STRONG> Those that maintain the myth the "layoff
the worst performers" such can be accomplished are either ignorant,
delusional, or lying phonies.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Since Donovan's experience in the real world, especially in the world of
enterprise, seems to be limited as witnessed by his many witless statements,
and given his propensity for making a wedding gown and six bridesmaid's dress
from a mote of lint, few will take him seriously on this or other
issues. Except in cases where his ignorance is likely to mislead
some who are not familiar with a given topic, it is counterproductive to
even respond to his self-satisfying, substitute masturbatory, bitter
posts. His problem is between himself and his alienist.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>However, with Gary things are a bit different. He has presented
himself as a freedom loving libertarian and a champion of free enterprise, and
has allied himself of others of similar mind like Dale Courtney. If one
is to champion free enterprise, one ought exhibit at least some fundamental
understanding of how it currently works, instead of exhibiting abysmal
ignorance. He an Donovan now make a set of two posters where fantasy,
bitterness, and evasion are their stock in trade instead of facts and
reason based discourse.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I repeat (more or less) from before:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana size=3>When it comes to
political or ideological viewpoints, there has yet to be developed a reliable,
agreed upon method to separate the true from the false (if that is even
possible). Such things are always subject to debate at this point, but
sometimes progress toward mutual agreement is made. Misleading ruses,
absurdities, evasions, ignorance, egoism, obtuseness, stubbornness, lack of
courage, etc obscure and stifle rather than forward progress
toward agreement in these areas. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Verdana
size=3></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR>Wayne A. Fox<BR>1009 Karen Lane<BR>PO Box 9421<BR>Moscow, ID
83843</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>(208) 882-7975<BR><A
href="mailto:waf@moscow.com">waf@moscow.com</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=jampot@adelphia.net href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net">g. crabtree</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=jampot@adelphia.net
href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net">g. crabtree</A> ; <A
title=the_ivies3@yahoo.com href="mailto:the_ivies3@yahoo.com">Tom Ivie</A> ;
<A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 08, 2007 6:34 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] What about the kids? (was Weitz
isacivicterrorist??</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Actually, after giving the Big Deals program a
little more thought I do see a way it could be turned into an effective
teaching tool. Take the entire MSD operating budget (include federal monies as
well as funds for boondoggles such as Head Start, DARE, USDA school lunch
programs, Diversity training, etc. Every nickel spent directly or indirectly
on education) and divide it up equally amongst all the youth in the
district and then let them take it where they will get the most bang for
their buck. St. Mary's, Logos or back home to their parents. Those who feel
that MSD is the pinnacle of education can take it there and receive their
kickback.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In response to Donovan and his comment "<FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3>If teachers have to go, it should be the
ones that perform worst. That is the way the real world works." <FONT
face=Arial size=2>The real world and the world where teachers unions exist do
not even share the same time/space continuum. In NEA/IEA land deadwood floats,
administration bloats, and union officials gloat. There only connection to the
world you and I live in is through the pipeline we pass them a large and ever
increasing portion of our paychecks.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
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