[Vision2020] That's not what I had in mind, Crabtree

Sat Jun 9 17:39:30 PDT 2007

Salutations:

For a "critical thinker" you sure wasted no time in missing my point in its entirety. If every time I wrote something germane to my profession, (or my latest low watt radio commentary, newspaper article, or news item that I imagined of deathly import to one and all*) I posted it to this list I suspect that in no time people would scan the introductory paragraph, see nothing about the illustrious DW or the esteemed NG and hastily mash the delete button with the vehemence generally reserved for home refinance offers and boner pill come ons. I don't think that because something is important or interesting to me that it becomes necessary for me to inflict it on the list. Being a simple blue collar schlub, I can't bring myself to "assign" anything to anybody. 

g

* I see now this group now includes the rough draft  intros to future commentaries. Be still my heart.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Nick Gier 
  To: g. crabtree 
  Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com ; ngier at uidaho.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 4:36 PM
  Subject: That's not what I had in mind, Crabtree

  Greetings:

  I would like to respond to Gary Crabtree's latest with this hypothetical:

  Let's say that, out of respect and knowledge of my audience, I did NOT assign my fellow Visionaries to read the following articles, comparable in technical difficulty as the ones Crabtree listed.  Everything I've asked Visionaries to read (if they wanted to) are articles and columns written for a generally well informed and intelligent audience.  I did not want to show off like Crabtree did below, so I did not mention the following:

  "Prehension and Intentionality," Process Studies 6 (1976), pp. 197-213.
  "Wittgenstein and Forms of Life," Philosophy of the Social Sciences 10 (1980), pp. 241-258.
  "Wittgenstein and Heidegger: A Phenomenology of Forms of Life," Tijdschrift voor Filosofie (Belgium) 43 (1981), pp. 269-305.
  "Wittgenstein, Intentionality, and Behaviorism," Metaphilosophy 13 (1982), pp. 46-64.
  " Dialectic: East and West," Indian Philosophical Quarterly 10 (January, 1983), pp. 207-218.
  "Titanism: Radical Humanism--East and West," Dialogue and Alliance 1:3 (Fall, 1987), pp. 53-69.
  "Religious Syncretism and Unification Theology," Currents 2:1 (Summer, 1990), pp. 10-14.
  " Wittgenstein's Phenomenology Revisited," Philosophy Today 34:4 (1990), pp. 273-288.
  "Never Say Never: A Response to Harry P. Reeder's 'Wittgenstein Never Was a Phenomenologist,'"Journal of the British Society for Phenomenology 22:1 (January, 1991), pp. 80-83.
  "Foundations and Forms of Life: A Discussion of Gertrude Conway's Wittgenstein on Foundations," International Philosophical Quarterly 32:1 (March, 1992), pp. 119-125.
  "On the Deification of Confucius," Asian Philosophy 1:3 (1993), pp. 43-54.
  "Gandhi, Ahimsa , and the Self," Gandhi Marg 15:1 (April-June, 1993), pp. 24-38.
  "Hindu Titanism," Philosophy East & West 45:1 (January, 1995), pp. 73-96.
  "Ahimsa, the Self, and Postmodernism," International Philosophical Quarterly 35:1 (March, 1995), pp. 71-86.
  "Xunzi and the Confucian Answer to Titanism," The Journal of Chinese Philosophy 22:2 (June, 1995), pp. 129-151.
  "Gandhi and Mahayana Buddhism" (in Japanese), Journal of Oriental Studies 35:2 (1996), pp. 84-105.
  "Jaina Superhumanism and Gnostic Titanism," Scottish Journal of Religious Studies 17:2 (Autumn, 1996), pp. 139-158.
  "Gandhi: Premodern, Modern, or Postmodern?" Gandhi Marg 17:3 (Oct.-Dec., 1996), pp. 261-281.
  "The Yogi and the Goddess,"  International Journal of Hindu Studies 1:2 (June, 1997), pp. 265-87.
  "Gandhi, the Buddha, and Atman: A Response to Ramashray Roy" Gandhi Marg 21:4 (January-March, 2000), pp. 447-459.
  "Last Judgment as Self-Judgment: Kant, Autonomy, and Divine Power," Indian Philosophical Quarterly 28:1 (January, 2001), pp. 15-32.
  " Confucius, Gandhi, and the Aesthetics of Virtue," Asian Philosophy 11:1 (March, 2001), pp. 41-54.
  "The Dancing Ru: A Confucian Aesthetics of Virtue," Philosophy East and West 51:2 (April, 2001), pp. 280-305.
  "Synthetic Reason, Aesthetic Order, and the Grammar of Virtue"Journal of the Indian Council of Philosophical Research 18: 4 (2001), pp. 13-28.
  "Gandhi and the Virtue of Non-Violence," Gandhi Marg 23:3 (October-December, 2001), pp. 261-284.
  "Gandhi and Mahayana Buddhism," Gandhi Marg 25:2 (July-September, 2003), pp. 155-178.
    English version of article above.
  " Non-Violence as a Civic Virtue: Gandhi as a Reformed Liberal," International Journal of Hindu Studies 7 (2003), pp. 75-98.
  "Whitehead, Confucius, and the Aesthetics of Virtue," Asian Philosophy 14:2 (July, 2004), pp. 173-92.
  "Response to John Allen Tucker's Review of Spiritual Titanism," China Review International 
  12:1 (January, 2006), pp. 277-280
  " Virtue Ethics and Character Consequentialism," Dialogue: A Journal of Religion and Philosophy 
  Number 26 (Spring, 2006), pp. 18-21.
  "Hebrew and Buddhist Selves: A Constructive Postmodern Proposal," 
  Asian Philosophy 17:1 (March, 2007), pp. 47-64.
  "A Response to Shyam Ranganathan's Review of The Virtue of Non-Violence," 
  Philosophy East and West 57:4 (October, 2007).
  With Paul K. Kjellberg, "Buddhism and the Freedom of the Will"  in 
  Freedom and Determinism: Topics in Contemporary Philosophy,
  eds., J. K. Campbell, D. Shier, M. O'Rourke (Cambridge: MIT Press, 2004), pp. 277-304.
  "Toward a Hindu Virtue Ethics" in Contemporary Issues in Constructive Dharma,
  eds. R. D. Sherma and A. Deepak (Hampton, VA: Deepak Heritage Books, 2005), vol. 2, pp. 151-162.

    I would like to respond to Nicholas Gier's latest with this hypothetical:

    Lets say I post the article that I am about to submit to the society of 
    Institutional Security Specialists on the pros and cons of the current crop 
    of biometric front ends and their adaptability to various existing audited 
    access control systems.

    Then I post a paper I'm about to submit to the Associated Locksmiths of 
    America on the topic of my latest technique for greatly reducing the 
    occurrence of phantom masters in four level systems while maximizing usable 
    changes.

    Then I treat you all to the presentation I'm about to give at the Inland 
    Northwest Security Expo on hardware trends and the ADA.

    And for your edification, a treatise on strategies for avoiding glass 
    triggered relockers in TRTL60 burglary containers.

    ...keyless mechanical vs. piezo powered on door stand alone entry sets.

    ...determining proper amp/hour battery selection to provide effective back 
    up for multi door proximity readers.

    ...defeat strategies for the current generation of pick resistant locksets

    ...servicing/reconfiguring bank undercounter equipment. (coin vaults, cash 
    trims, sig. files,etc.)

    and so on, and on, and on.

    Would I blame him if he quit reading my posts after two paragraphs, 
    especially when it was clear I wasn't mentioning his exalted personage or 
    Douglas Wilson? I mean really, would anybody?

    g
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: <nickgier at adelphia.net>
    To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
    Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
    Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 10:45 AM
    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Christ is Commander-in-Chief

    > Greetings:
    >
    > I would like to respond to Gary Crabtree's latest with this hypothetical:
    >
    > Let's say that I post a one paragraph history of locksmithing and Crabtree 
    > takes serious objection to it.
    >
    > Would he take me seriously if I said that I refuse to read his extensive 
    > writings on the web about locks?  Would he respect me if I admitted that I 
    > stopped reading his posts after two paragraphs? Definitely not.
    >
    > How would he react if I said that he was just showing off and had a big 
    > head?  I'm sure he would think that I was being a tad defensive and 
    > evasive.  We respect his expertise, but those who make a living by 
    > thinking critically and researching subjects thoroughly get no respect, 
    > especially from conservatives on this list and nationwide.
    >
    > Let me remind Visionaries that Crabtree raised the issue of relative 
    > violence and body count.  Let me repeat that this is not the focus of my 
    > book at all.  It's his issue not mine.
    >
    > Crabtree now says that I unfairly took information from the early history 
    > of a more peaceful Islam, but earlier he claimed that Islam had big lead 
    > on Christianity before 1095.  Which will it be?
    >
    > Crabtree speaks of Islamic violence in the "modern period."  Can he verify 
    > any major violent events from the Emperor Aurangzeb (1618-1717), the most 
    > intolerant of the Mughuls, to the suppression of Christians and animists 
    > in present day Sudan?
    >
    > Saddam does not count because his atrocities were not motivated by 
    > religion. One always has to be reminded that the Iranian revolution 
    > against our corrupt Shah was a nonviolent movement led by the Ayatollah 
    > Khomeini from Paris.
    >
    > I just re-read Karen Armstrong's chapter on Islam from 1700-1870 ("The 
    > Battle for God"), and in Egypt we find that Muhammad Ali made Jews and 
    > Christians full citizens of his country (p. 119).  Turning to Iran we find 
    > no religious violence except for the short outburst of the Babis in 
    > 1849-50 (p. 131).  The causalities pale in comparison with the Christian 
    > Taipings in China, who killed far more people than Mao ever did.
    >
    > The Armenian genocide was an ethnic cleansing by secular Turks, not 
    > religious fundamentalists.  As Armstrong states: "secular nationalism 
    > could be lethal and certainly as dangerous as the crusades and purges 
    > conducted in the name of religion" (p. 191).
    >
    > The Muslim Brotherhood , founded in Egypt in 1928, was a peaceful 
    > organization until the first Israel-Arab war.  Members of the terrorist 
    > wing have been in and out of jail under Egypt's secular rulers.
    >
    > It is significant to note that Hamas is a Palestinian offshoot of the 
    > Brotherhood which was funded by the Israeli CIA to counter Yasar Arafat. 
    > This was just as stupid as our CIA's decision to fund the Afghan jihadis 
    > against the Soviet Union. Talk about blow-back!
    >
    > Ooops!  I've gone far beyond two paragraphs.  Sorry, but these issues are 
    > complex and cannot be summarized in one paragraph.
    >
    > I afraid that one paragraph summaries have been the way that Bush has led 
    > the country for 6 1/2 years.
    >
    > Nick Gier
    >
    > "Gary Crabtree raised that issue and I thought that his historical summary 
    > was so off the mark that I needed to respond."
    > Mr. Gier, In your response you cherry pick statistics for the early years 
    > of Islam to place Christianity in the most unfavorable light (absolutely 
    > no surprise there), totally overlook muslim on muslim violence, and 
    > totally ignore muslim belligerence in the modern era. Numbers are always 
    > subject to debate but I stand by my original statement. As others have 
    > rightly pointed out, It's a silly and pointless argument especially when 
    > separated from the original topic.
    >
    > Sorry it took so long to respond. Till it was brought to my attention in 
    > an off list post, I was unaware of your attempt to set me straight. It 
    > pains me to admit that I (and I suspect many) delete any post of yours 
    > that runs more then a paragraph of two. I also avoid 
    > ***.class.uidaho.edu/ngier along with ***.newwest. with the same diligence 
    > I apply to insurance come ons and porn sites. Life is just too short to do 
    > justice to the wonder which is you and I'll not insult you by starting now 
    > and only be able to devote my remaining 40/50 or so years to the task.
    >
    > g
    > 

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  "Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application of it to human affairs."
  --Ralph Waldo Emerson

  "Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."
   --Mohandas Gandhi

  "Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot be discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each part by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on the interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our intellectual life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, religion, and art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various parts." --Max Planck

  Nicholas F. Gier
  Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
  1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
  http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm
  208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
  President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
  http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm

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