[Vision2020] "Illegals" OK only if they fight in Iraq
g. crabtree
jampot at adelphia.net
Sat Jun 2 11:11:07 PDT 2007
I agree with you that employers who knowingly employ illegals deserve any punishment they receive when they are caught.
I also agree that most are probably not master forgers. Unfortunate they don't need to be. There are plenty of unscrupulous types who are only too willing to provide the necessary documentation to work and receive benefits in this country for a fee. Many municipalities (sanctuary cities) are happy to issue ID cards, extend services, and instruct law enforcement to look the other way. All of these things not only make it attractive to come over, but pave the way for their entry into the US job market to say nothing of the health care system, educational system, and bread line.
A question I would have for you and Ms. Mix would be what do you imagine happens when an improper I-9 form is detected? Do you think that the INS and/or ICE or even the SSA swoops in to escort the miscreant back to their country of origin? let me assure you that they don't. Even when an illegal is convicted of a felony it is rare than any federal enforcement organization becomes interested.
Considering the lack of willingness to do anything about the problem once these people arrive, I think it would be most effective to do our best to keep them out in the first place. If the government could show good faith in that area, I might barely be willing to believe some of the hot air being generated with regard to further solutions to this problem.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Illegals" OK only if they fight in Iraq
> As Keely mentions in a later post, there are strict laws in place about
> what documentation is required for employment, and forms that need to be
> filled out (I9s). One from column A or two from column B or whatever the
> rules are. So I wouldn't call this making the small businessman
> implement the solution, I'd call it having the small businessman follow
> the existing laws.
>
> Believe me, I'm against a national ID card as much as you are. I don't
> think we need one in this case, though. It's certainly possible to fake
> a birth certificate or a drivers license or any of the other pieces of
> identification that are required. However, when it comes time to send
> the persons tax information to the Social Security Administration as an
> employer it would become clear that this employee does not have a valid
> SSN. This would put another burden on the small businessman again,
> though. They would have to actually send this information in to the
> government at tax time for these employees.
>
> I'm not convinced that these illegal immigrants are master forgers of
> documents, though. My guess is that they are simply working "under the
> table". They most likely get paid in cash, out of some fund that is set
> aside for some other purpose. They don't give their employer any
> documentation and the employer doesn't send anything on to the
> government about them. The worker wins because they get what is to them
> a large amount of money every week. It's a win for the employer, because
> they can pay them peanuts and not even have to give them any benefits.
> If the employer loses a substantial amount of money every time they get
> caught, and if this amount of money is substantially larger than what
> they would pay a documented employee with benefits for a year, and if
> this were watched closely, then the employer would quickly learn that
> it's in their best interest to follow the existing laws. Now, it's true
> that this would cause prices to rise and hurt the small businessman who
> is paying the workers under the table right now - but that's the cost of
> following the laws. I don't have any pity for them when they get raided,
> either. Find another business model. Nobody owes them a profit.
>
> However, if the employers are following the laws and the immigrants in
> question are hoodwinking them with fake documents, then I'd say we've
> got a problem. I imagine that's not the case that often, though.
> However, I have no stats to back that up so I could easily be wrong.
>
> I mean, why are these people coming here, anyway? Aren't they escaping
> tough situations in their home country? Don't they come over here to
> work, mostly? I'm sure there are illegal immigrants that are part of the
> criminal element, but the ones I hear about are picking apples or moving
> boxes around for little money. Does anyone know what the rules are for a
> Mexican citizen to legally immigrate? Perhaps we need to revise those a
> bit, too.
>
> I just don't think it's cost effective to entice them to sneak over here
> so some businesses can save a dime while at the same we are putting up
> an expensive wall to (try to) keep them out.
>
> Paul
>
> g. crabtree wrote:
>> On the surface Paul's suggestion seems reasonable but there are at
>> least two small problems with that approach. The first is that, once
>> again, it takes a national problem and forces the small business man
>> to implement the solution. (just like tax collection) How is the
>> employer to make a definitive call on the legality of any given
>> potential new hire? There were provisions in the Reagan Amnesty to
>> make employers check legal status and nothing came of it due to the
>> difficulty in making that determination. How are you checking the
>> legal status of your employees currently, Matt?
>>
>> Which leads me directly to the second objection: the national I.D.
>> card. Matt, how would you or Paul prove to a new employer that you
>> were legal residents of the USA? Your drivers license? Your birth
>> certificate? As I'm sure that you are well aware these can be easily
>> faked. To combat this a national identification card would pretty much
>> have to be implemented and my objections of that are several. First,
>> how long before those are faked and we're right back at the starting
>> gate. Two, the expense of getting one into the hands of every single
>> man, woman, and child in America would be enormous if you consider
>> that some type of background check would have to be done for each
>> individual. You can't do a less comprehensive check on the dumpy,
>> middle aged, white guy (me for instance) then you would on Jose, the
>> twenty something, brown skinned man with no permanent address. That
>> would be discriminatory. Three, the idea of produce on demand
>> documents leaves me a bit cold for what should be obvious reasons.
>>
>> Rather than going the route that places the greatest burden on the
>> citizens of our country, the government should do what is required to
>> control the boarders, be it by the construction of "The Wall,"
>> increased boarder guards, (who do not have their hands tied with
>> stupid restraints) Predator drones and other enhanced security
>> measures. Once the influx of illegal's is controlled we can turn our
>> attention to coping with the ones who are here already.
>>
>> g
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
>> To: <godshatter at yahoo.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 8:35 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Illegals" OK only if they fight in Iraq
>>
>>
>>> Paul,
>>>
>>> Great points.
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Illegals" OK only if they fight in Iraq
>>>> Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 19:33:09 -0700
>>>>
>>>> ..not responding to your comments to Nick necessarily, just illegal
>>>> immigration in general...
>>>>
>>>> It takes two to tango. They wouldn't be coming over here if there
>>>> weren't
>>>> places they could work under the table. Slap those companies with harsh
>>>> fines when they are caught and the influx would at least slow down.
>>>>
>>>> I would suggest that more of our ancestors didn't come into the country
>>>> illegally because it is harder to swim the Atlantic Ocean than it is to
>>>> swim the Rio Grande.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> Matt Decker wrote:
>>>>> Nick,
>>>>>
>>>>> "Or is the only good illegal simply a dead illegal?"
>>>>>
>>>>> Wow ya have us evil coservatives paiged. Death to all "brownies".
>>>>>
>>>>> Or maybe just maybe, asking for people to abide by the rules like
>>>>> most of
>>>>> our ancestors, following the rules to gain entry into out great
>>>>> country,
>>>>> is what we thrive for. To establish a more thorough approach to "who"
>>>>> comes in and what good and bad they bring, is the more logical
>>>>> reasoning
>>>>> behind our racist minds. Maybe just maybe, trying to stop the easy
>>>>> access
>>>>> to drug traffic, high crime, terrorists that can easily come
>>>>> through "if"
>>>>> desired.
>>>>>
>>>>> But hey if your rocks get off by promoting all anti-conservative
>>>>> speals,
>>>>> toot your own horn at will.
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: <nickgier at adelphia.net>
>>>>>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>> Subject: [Vision2020] "Illegals" OK only if they fight in Iraq
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:03:49 -0700
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Greetings:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This article was posted on NewWest. Attached is a cartoon on the
>>>>>> subject
>>>>>> "Weren't the Pilgrims (and many others) illegal immigrants?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nick Gier
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Guest Commentary
>>>>>> Is the Only Good Illegal a Dead Illegal?
>>>>>> By Contributing Writer, 5-30-07
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I read Quang Phamâ?Ts article, â?oFrom Illegal to Immortal â?" Marine
>>>>>> Sgt. Rafael Peraltaâ? regarding a program on the History Channel. To
>>>>>> encapsulate his story mercilessly, Sgt. Rafael Peralta was a Mexican
>>>>>> native who came to this country illegally and became a Marine. He
>>>>>> made a
>>>>>> heroic and ultimate sacrifice in Falloujah, and his last act saved
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> lives of many other Marines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the record, though I was against the Iraq War from the
>>>>>> beginning, I
>>>>>> honor Sgt. Peralta and all those whoâ?Tve sacrificed in service to
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> country. But what interests me about this story is not the Iraq
>>>>>> connection or what Peralta did there per se, but rather the
>>>>>> reaction to
>>>>>> the tale by conservatives in general, and especially those who vilify
>>>>>> illegal immigrants.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That Peralta entered this country illegally is not in dispute. As
>>>>>> noted
>>>>>> by Clemenseando and others, â?oSgt. Peralta immigrated illegally
>>>>>> to the
>>>>>> United States as a teenagerâ?¦. In high school, he was approached
>>>>>> by a
>>>>>> Marine recruiter who told him to get in touch once he cleared up his
>>>>>> legal status.â?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note that Peralta came to the U.S. alone â?" without his parents.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Assuming that illegal immigration foes would have only grudging
>>>>>> admiration for a war hero who entered this country illegally, I
>>>>>> looked
>>>>>> around the web for disparaging or equivocal comments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I found none. The anti-illegal crowd and other conservatives have
>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>> but praise for Peralta. Whatâ?Ts more, theyâ?Tve sanitized the
>>>>>> story of
>>>>>> his immigration status.
>>>>>> Raoul Lowery Contreras, author of The Illegal Alien: A Dagger into
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Heart of America? says â?oPeralta graduated from Morse High
>>>>>> School, still
>>>>>> a Mexican citizen and worked to get his Permanent Resident Card, the
>>>>>> famous â?~Green Cardâ?T so he could join the Marines.â?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oliver North writes that Peralta was â?oa Mexican immigrant who
>>>>>> enlisted
>>>>>> in the Marine Corps the day he received his green card.â?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Deborah at My Little Corner of the World, a blog whose motto is
>>>>>> â?oCalling an illegal alien an â?~undocumented immigrantâ?T is like
>>>>>> calling a drug dealer an â?~unlicensed pharmacist,â?T â? quotes a
>>>>>> Boston
>>>>>> Globe story that notes, â?oRafael Peralta was 25 years old, a Mexican
>>>>>> immigrant from San Diego who had enlisted in the Marines as soon
>>>>>> as he
>>>>>> became a legal resident. â?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> None of the press or blog reports tell precisely how Peralta got his
>>>>>> green card, but attorneys and former illegals relate that the way an
>>>>>> illegal alien â?oclears upâ? his or her legal status is by paying a
>>>>>> bunch of money to a licenciado or notario who bribes people to forge
>>>>>> papers and commit perjury, thereby constructing a false history that
>>>>>> allows one to fit into a particular green card category.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Writers such as those above glide blissfully past this inconvenient
>>>>>> truth, saying Peralta â?oworked to getâ? his green card, or simply
>>>>>> â?oreceivedâ? it, or somehow â?obecame a legal resident.â?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is this supposed to mean? Do some actually believe an
>>>>>> undocumented
>>>>>> person can perform some sort of â?oworkâ? that will eventually
>>>>>> earn them
>>>>>> a green card? Do they think a green card will just show up in the
>>>>>> mail if
>>>>>> a person stands by the mailbox long enough? Are Jose and Maria,
>>>>>> whoâ?Tve
>>>>>> lived here illegally for 10 years, still illegal only because they
>>>>>> havenâ?Tt â?oworkedâ? to â?oclear upâ? their status?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Concomitantly, is the sin of having entered the country illegally
>>>>>> magically washed away once an immigrant figures out how to jump
>>>>>> ahead of
>>>>>> everyone else to get a green card? Is the guilt of illegal entry
>>>>>> and the
>>>>>> dishonesty required for an illegal to become legal absolved by a
>>>>>> demonstration of heroism?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or is the only good illegal simply a dead illegal?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gila Jones is a regular contributor to TheLiberalOC, an Orange
>>>>>> County,
>>>>>> California blog.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> << PilgrimsIllegal.doc >>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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