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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I agree with you that employers who knowingly
employ illegals deserve any punishment they receive when they are
caught.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I also agree that most are probably not master
forgers. Unfortunate they don't need to be. There are plenty of unscrupulous
types who are only too willing to provide the necessary documentation to work
and receive benefits in this country for a fee. Many municipalities (sanctuary
cities) are happy to issue ID cards, extend services, and instruct law
enforcement to look the other way. All of these things not only make it
attractive to come over, but pave the way for their entry into the US job
market to say nothing of the health care system, educational system, and
bread line.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A question I would have for you and Ms. Mix would
be what do you imagine happens when an improper I-9 form is detected? Do you
think that the INS and/or ICE or even the SSA swoops in to escort the miscreant
back to their country of origin? let me assure you that they don't. Even when an
illegal is convicted of a felony it is rare than any federal enforcement
organization becomes interested.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Considering the lack of willingness to do anything
about the problem once these people arrive, I think it would be most
effective to do our best to keep them out in the first place. If the government
could show good faith in that area, I might barely be willing to believe
some of the hot air being generated with regard to further solutions to this
problem.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From: "Paul Rumelhart" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>godshatter@yahoo.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 10:06 AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Illegals" OK only if
they fight in Iraq</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>> As Keely mentions in a later post, there are strict laws in place
about <BR>> what documentation is required for employment, and forms that
need to be <BR>> filled out (I9s). One from column A or two from column B or
whatever the <BR>> rules are. So I wouldn't call this making the small
businessman <BR>> implement the solution, I'd call it having the small
businessman follow <BR>> the existing laws.<BR>> <BR>> Believe me, I'm
against a national ID card as much as you are. I don't <BR>> think we need
one in this case, though. It's certainly possible to fake <BR>> a birth
certificate or a drivers license or any of the other pieces of <BR>>
identification that are required. However, when it comes time to send <BR>>
the persons tax information to the Social Security Administration as an <BR>>
employer it would become clear that this employee does not have a valid <BR>>
SSN. This would put another burden on the small businessman again, <BR>>
though. They would have to actually send this information in to the <BR>>
government at tax time for these employees.<BR>> <BR>> I'm not convinced
that these illegal immigrants are master forgers of <BR>> documents, though.
My guess is that they are simply working "under the <BR>> table". They most
likely get paid in cash, out of some fund that is set <BR>> aside for some
other purpose. They don't give their employer any <BR>> documentation and the
employer doesn't send anything on to the <BR>> government about them. The
worker wins because they get what is to them <BR>> a large amount of money
every week. It's a win for the employer, because <BR>> they can pay them
peanuts and not even have to give them any benefits. <BR>> If the employer
loses a substantial amount of money every time they get <BR>> caught, and if
this amount of money is substantially larger than what <BR>> they would pay a
documented employee with benefits for a year, and if <BR>> this were watched
closely, then the employer would quickly learn that <BR>> it's in their best
interest to follow the existing laws. Now, it's true <BR>> that this would
cause prices to rise and hurt the small businessman who <BR>> is paying the
workers under the table right now - but that's the cost of <BR>> following
the laws. I don't have any pity for them when they get raided, <BR>> either.
Find another business model. Nobody owes them a profit.<BR>> <BR>>
However, if the employers are following the laws and the immigrants in <BR>>
question are hoodwinking them with fake documents, then I'd say we've <BR>>
got a problem. I imagine that's not the case that often, though. <BR>>
However, I have no stats to back that up so I could easily be wrong.<BR>>
<BR>> I mean, why are these people coming here, anyway? Aren't they escaping
<BR>> tough situations in their home country? Don't they come over here to
<BR>> work, mostly? I'm sure there are illegal immigrants that are part of
the <BR>> criminal element, but the ones I hear about are picking apples or
moving <BR>> boxes around for little money. Does anyone know what the rules
are for a <BR>> Mexican citizen to legally immigrate? Perhaps we need to
revise those a <BR>> bit, too.<BR>> <BR>> I just don't think it's cost
effective to entice them to sneak over here <BR>> so some businesses can save
a dime while at the same we are putting up <BR>> an expensive wall to (try
to) keep them out.<BR>> <BR>> Paul<BR>> <BR>> g. crabtree
wrote:<BR>>> On the surface Paul's suggestion seems reasonable but there
are at <BR>>> least two small problems with that approach. The first is
that, once <BR>>> again, it takes a national problem and forces the small
business man <BR>>> to implement the solution. (just like tax collection)
How is the <BR>>> employer to make a definitive call on the legality of
any given <BR>>> potential new hire? There were provisions in the Reagan
Amnesty to <BR>>> make employers check legal status and nothing came of it
due to the <BR>>> difficulty in making that determination. How are you
checking the <BR>>> legal status of your employees currently,
Matt?<BR>>><BR>>> Which leads me directly to the second objection:
the national I.D. <BR>>> card. Matt, how would you or Paul prove to a new
employer that you <BR>>> were legal residents of the USA? Your drivers
license? Your birth <BR>>> certificate? As I'm sure that you are well
aware these can be easily <BR>>> faked. To combat this a national
identification card would pretty much <BR>>> have to be implemented and my
objections of that are several. First, <BR>>> how long before those are
faked and we're right back at the starting <BR>>> gate. Two, the expense
of getting one into the hands of every single <BR>>> man, woman, and child
in America would be enormous if you consider <BR>>> that some type of
background check would have to be done for each <BR>>> individual. You
can't do a less comprehensive check on the dumpy, <BR>>> middle aged,
white guy (me for instance) then you would on Jose, the <BR>>> twenty
something, brown skinned man with no permanent address. That <BR>>> would
be discriminatory. Three, the idea of produce on demand <BR>>> documents
leaves me a bit cold for what should be obvious reasons.<BR>>><BR>>>
Rather than going the route that places the greatest burden on the <BR>>>
citizens of our country, the government should do what is required to
<BR>>> control the boarders, be it by the construction of "The Wall,"
<BR>>> increased boarder guards, (who do not have their hands tied with
<BR>>> stupid restraints) Predator drones and other enhanced security
<BR>>> measures. Once the influx of illegal's is controlled we can turn
our <BR>>> attention to coping with the ones who are here
already.<BR>>><BR>>> g<BR>>> ----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Decker" <</FONT><A href="mailto:mattd2107@hotmail.com"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>mattd2107@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>> To: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>godshatter@yahoo.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>;
<</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>>>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 8:35 PM<BR>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
"Illegals" OK only if they fight in Iraq<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>>
Paul,<BR>>>><BR>>>> Great
points.<BR>>>><BR>>>>
Matt<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>> From: Paul Rumelhart
<</FONT><A href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>godshatter@yahoo.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>>>> To: </FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Illegals" OK only if they
fight in Iraq<BR>>>>> Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 19:33:09
-0700<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> ..not responding to your comments
to Nick necessarily, just illegal<BR>>>>> immigration in
general...<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> It takes two to tango. They
wouldn't be coming over here if there <BR>>>>>
weren't<BR>>>>> places they could work under the table. Slap those
companies with harsh<BR>>>>> fines when they are caught and the
influx would at least slow down.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> I would
suggest that more of our ancestors didn't come into the
country<BR>>>>> illegally because it is harder to swim the Atlantic
Ocean than it is to<BR>>>>> swim the Rio
Grande.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
Paul<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Matt Decker
wrote:<BR>>>>>>
Nick,<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> "Or is the only good
illegal simply a dead illegal?"<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
Wow ya have us evil coservatives paiged. Death to all
"brownies".<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> Or maybe just maybe,
asking for people to abide by the rules like <BR>>>>>> most
of<BR>>>>>> our ancestors, following the rules to gain entry into
out great <BR>>>>>> country,<BR>>>>>> is what we
thrive for. To establish a more thorough approach to
"who"<BR>>>>>> comes in and what good and bad they bring, is the
more logical <BR>>>>>> reasoning<BR>>>>>> behind
our racist minds. Maybe just maybe, trying to stop the easy
<BR>>>>>> access<BR>>>>>> to drug traffic, high
crime, terrorists that can easily come <BR>>>>>> through
"if"<BR>>>>>>
desired.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> But hey if your rocks
get off by promoting all anti-conservative <BR>>>>>>
speals,<BR>>>>>> toot your own horn at
will.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
Matt<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
From: <</FONT><A href="mailto:nickgier@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nickgier@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>>>>>> To: </FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>>>> Subject: [Vision2020] "Illegals" OK only if they
fight in Iraq<BR>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:03:49
-0700<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
Greetings:<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> This article
was posted on NewWest. Attached is a cartoon on the <BR>>>>>>>
subject<BR>>>>>>> "Weren't the Pilgrims (and many others)
illegal immigrants?"<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
Nick Gier<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Guest
Commentary<BR>>>>>>> Is the Only Good Illegal a Dead
Illegal?<BR>>>>>>> By Contributing Writer,
5-30-07<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> I read Quang
Pham?Ts article, ?oFrom Illegal to Immortal ?"
Marine<BR>>>>>>> Sgt. Rafael Peralta? regarding a program on
the History Channel. To<BR>>>>>>> encapsulate his story
mercilessly, Sgt. Rafael Peralta was a Mexican<BR>>>>>>>
native who came to this country illegally and became a Marine. He
<BR>>>>>>> made a<BR>>>>>>> heroic and
ultimate sacrifice in Falloujah, and his last act saved
<BR>>>>>>> the<BR>>>>>>> lives of many other
Marines.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> For the record,
though I was against the Iraq War from the <BR>>>>>>>
beginning, I<BR>>>>>>> honor Sgt. Peralta and all those
who?Tve sacrificed in service to <BR>>>>>>>
our<BR>>>>>>> country. But what interests me about this story
is not the Iraq<BR>>>>>>> connection or what Peralta did there
per se, but rather the <BR>>>>>>> reaction
to<BR>>>>>>> the tale by conservatives in general, and
especially those who vilify<BR>>>>>>> illegal
immigrants.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> That Peralta
entered this country illegally is not in dispute. As
<BR>>>>>>> noted<BR>>>>>>> by Clemenseando
and others, ?oSgt. Peralta immigrated illegally <BR>>>>>>> to
the<BR>>>>>>> United States as a teenager?. In high school,
he was approached <BR>>>>>>> by a<BR>>>>>>>
Marine recruiter who told him to get in touch once he cleared up
his<BR>>>>>>> legal
status.?<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Note that
Peralta came to the U.S. alone ?" without his
parents.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Assuming that
illegal immigration foes would have only grudging<BR>>>>>>>
admiration for a war hero who entered this country illegally, I
<BR>>>>>>> looked<BR>>>>>>> around the web
for disparaging or equivocal
comments.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> I found none.
The anti-illegal crowd and other conservatives have <BR>>>>>>>
nothing<BR>>>>>>> but praise for Peralta. What?Ts more,
they?Tve sanitized the <BR>>>>>>> story
of<BR>>>>>>> his immigration
status.<BR>>>>>>> Raoul Lowery Contreras, author of The
Illegal Alien: A Dagger into <BR>>>>>>>
the<BR>>>>>>> Heart of America? says ?oPeralta graduated from
Morse High <BR>>>>>>> School,
still<BR>>>>>>> a Mexican citizen and worked to get his
Permanent Resident Card, the<BR>>>>>>> famous ?~Green Card?T
so he could join the
Marines.?<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Oliver North
writes that Peralta was ?oa Mexican immigrant who <BR>>>>>>>
enlisted<BR>>>>>>> in the Marine Corps the day he received his
green card.?<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Deborah
at My Little Corner of the World, a blog whose motto
is<BR>>>>>>> ?oCalling an illegal alien an ?~undocumented
immigrant?T is like<BR>>>>>>> calling a drug dealer an
?~unlicensed pharmacist,?T ? quotes a <BR>>>>>>>
Boston<BR>>>>>>> Globe story that notes, ?oRafael Peralta was
25 years old, a Mexican<BR>>>>>>> immigrant from San Diego who
had enlisted in the Marines as soon <BR>>>>>>> as
he<BR>>>>>>> became a legal resident.
?<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> None of the press or
blog reports tell precisely how Peralta got his<BR>>>>>>>
green card, but attorneys and former illegals relate that the way
an<BR>>>>>>> illegal alien ?oclears up? his or her legal
status is by paying a<BR>>>>>>> bunch of money to a licenciado
or notario who bribes people to forge<BR>>>>>>> papers and
commit perjury, thereby constructing a false history
that<BR>>>>>>> allows one to fit into a particular green card
category.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Writers such
as those above glide blissfully past this
inconvenient<BR>>>>>>> truth, saying Peralta ?oworked to
get? his green card, or simply<BR>>>>>>> ?oreceived? it,
or somehow ?obecame a legal
resident.?<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> What is
this supposed to mean? Do some actually believe an <BR>>>>>>>
undocumented<BR>>>>>>> person can perform some sort of
?owork? that will eventually <BR>>>>>>> earn
them<BR>>>>>>> a green card? Do they think a green card will
just show up in the <BR>>>>>>> mail
if<BR>>>>>>> a person stands by the mailbox long enough? Are
Jose and Maria, <BR>>>>>>>
who?Tve<BR>>>>>>> lived here illegally for 10 years, still
illegal only because they<BR>>>>>>> haven?Tt ?oworked? to
?oclear up? their
status?<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Concomitantly,
is the sin of having entered the country illegally<BR>>>>>>>
magically washed away once an immigrant figures out how to jump
<BR>>>>>>> ahead of<BR>>>>>>> everyone else
to get a green card? Is the guilt of illegal entry <BR>>>>>>>
and the<BR>>>>>>> dishonesty required for an illegal to become
legal absolved by a<BR>>>>>>> demonstration of
heroism?<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Or is the only
good illegal simply a dead
illegal?<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Gila Jones is a
regular contributor to TheLiberalOC, an Orange <BR>>>>>>>
County,<BR>>>>>>> California
blog.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
<< PilgrimsIllegal.doc
>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
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