[Vision2020] Compassion for All Life

Tony tonytime at clearwire.net
Fri Jan 26 20:07:42 PST 2007


Uhh.....   Thanks for sharing that with us Dave.

-T
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "david sarff" <davesway at hotmail.com>
To: <tonytime at clearwire.net>; <ngier at uidaho.edu>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for All Life


>
>
> "Is our existence no more remarkable than a muskrat when we can compose 
> poetry or construct the Twin Towers? "
>
> Tony, thanks for keeping your message and tone more centered . I really 
> don't mean to look down on this, it simply causes me curiosity when people 
> love the self reflection factor of people stuff. When we can build a 
> muskrat or even a mustard seed, I'll be more impressed.
> Dave
>
>
>>
>>Nick, your revered logic would dictate to me that the ONLY species out of 
>>how many millions on this planet that is capable of sending space probes 
>>beyond the solar system, composing great works of literature or carving 
>>David from solid marble, is reasonably viewed as superior to the other 
>>lesser endowed species.  Is our existence no more remarkable than a 
>>muskrat when we can compose poetry or construct the Twin Towers?
>>
>>Yes, human being is a biological category, but one of extraordinary 
>>uniqueness, endowed over and above the others in a myriad of ways.  They 
>>are also, according to our Declaration, deserving of and endowed with, 
>>certain unalienable rights, one of which is the right to life.  And 
>>therein your dilemma.  You can cling tenaciously to an irrelevancy, are 
>>they persons or non persons, but you cannot deny their humanity.  It seems 
>>Nick, that you pick and choose which written declarations you will adhere 
>>to.  I suppose we all must.  Is the Supreme Court the entity I most trust 
>>in deciding these matters, or do I rely on the wisdom of those who drafted 
>>the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution?  Guess I'll stick 
>>with the latter.  You apparently prefer the former, as is your right.  I 
>>will continue to oppose the premeditated killing of innocent human beings, 
>>but I am willing to agree to disagree with you if you choose a different 
>>path.
>>
>>Sincerely,   -Tony
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Nick Gier
>>   To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>   Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 9:29 AM
>>   Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for All Life
>>
>>
>>   Greetings:
>>
>>   I will continue to repeat points of logic as long as some refuse to 
>> recognize them.  If logic is "heartless," but the only way that we can 
>> communicate rationally, then so be it.  Rational discourse is not 
>> regulated by "what folks say," but, heartlessly enough, by the rules of 
>> logic.
>>
>>   "Person" is a moral and legal category, whereas "human being" is a 
>> biological category.  The fetus is a unique living being at conception, 
>> but so are all higher animal fetuses, so we cannot draw any moral 
>> conclusions from this fact.  But that it also means that we don't draw 
>> the absurd conclusion that a human=pig=rat=salamander. Of course they are 
>> physically different, but are they morally different?
>>
>>   The basic question is: how do we draw the basic moral distinction?  Our 
>> moral, legal, tradition has chosen "significant cognitive function" as 
>> the line between persons and non-persons, and the science of fetal 
>> development demonstrates that this does not appear until about 25 weeks.
>>
>>   In answer to Kai's response to me, let me remind him that I started 
>> with the condition statement: "If "significant cognitive functioning" . . 
>> . is not the way we sort out persons from non-persons, . . ."
>>
>>   I support this traditional view, so everything that follows after that 
>> is hypothetical, and I deliberately hyped it so as to show that it simply 
>> won't happen, even though our biosphere would improve dramatically if it 
>> did.
>>
>>   For at least 6,000 years, thousands of Hindus and Jains have eaten a 
>> strict vegetarian diet.  During that time they developed systems of 
>> logic, science, and math that are amazing.  For example, we owe to them 
>> the invention of the zero.
>>
>>   But even if Kai is correct that meat eating was necessary for the early 
>> development of the human brain, we now have the technology to thrive on a 
>> nonmeat diet, one that I believe is necessary to alleviate the 
>> environmental disaster of increasing cattle raising.
>>
>>   Would anyone like to participate in my soy bologna taste test?  I'll 
>> give you fair warning: many people have chosen the soy product as the 
>> "real" bologna!
>>
>>   Veggie Burgers Forever,
>>
>>   Nick Gier
>>
>>
>>   At 08:24 AM 1/26/2007, you wrote:
>>
>>     Nick, "persons from non-persons" is a heartless rationalization.  The 
>> question is: human or non-human.  I understand that you feel a pig is a 
>> rat is a boy - that human beings have the exact same value in your world 
>> as say, a salamander.  Most folks would question such a value system 
>> however, whether from a religious standpoint or otherwise.
>>
>>     As for veggie burgers, I might consider switching over if we used 
>> Paul's recipe.
>>
>>     Later,    -T
>>
>>       ----- Original Message -----
>>
>>       From: Nick Gier
>>
>>       To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>
>>       Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 9:41 AM
>>
>>       Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for All Life
>>
>>
>>       Greetings:
>>
>>
>>       If "significant cognitive functioning" (beautiful description of 
>> the traditional view!) is not the way we sort out persons from 
>> non-persons, then please join with me in extending unconditional 
>> compassion to all the animals that are killed every day to feed the 
>> several billion carnivorous maws all over the world.
>>
>>
>>       This is an unnecessary slaughter because we can grow complete 
>> vegetable protein at a much lower cost and with much less damage to the 
>> environment.  Just as the earth and its atmosphere cannot bear developing 
>> countries owning as many cars as we do, neither can the earth bear the 
>> increased meat consumption that these countries are experiencing.
>>
>>
>>       Both addictions, one to oil and the other to animal flesh, will be 
>> the end of us.  Millions of acres of the Amazonian rain forest are cut 
>> ever year to make way for raising beef cattle, pouring tons of CO2 and 
>> CH4 (from bovine stomachs) into the air.
>>
>>
>>       If the tradition distinction between persons and non-persons is 
>> ignored, then the only moral option is to recognize that all life has a 
>> serious moral right to live.
>>
>>
>>       Veggie Burgers Forever!
>>
>>
>>       Nick Gier
>>
>>         Oh professor, how you cling to a specious distinction.  You may 
>> view "significant cognitive functioning" as helpful in defining 
>> personhood so as to rationalize killing, but it is still the taking of a 
>> human life.  For humans who were allowed to grow to adulthood unmolested 
>> to decide to kill those who have yet to develope fully is the very height 
>> of callousness and insensetivity.  You can blame tradition all you like 
>> but as I pointed out, tradition is frequently wrong and in this case you 
>> are tragically wrong along with it.
>>
>>
>>
>>         What kind of an ethical vacuum do you live in which regards the 
>> murder of the innocent as a "good tradition?"  If you truly believe this, 
>> you are not being intellectually honest, but rather morally bankrupt.
>>
>>
>>
>>         Now go grow some compassion.  -T
>>           ----- Original Message -----
>>           From: Nick Gier
>>           To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>           Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 8:59 AM
>>           Subject: [Vision2020] African Americans and Fetuses
>>
>>           Greetings:
>>
>>           The traditional view of moral and legal persons, coming from 
>> our combined religious, moral, and legal histories, eventually won out 
>> with regard to recognizing African Americans as full moral and legal 
>> persons.  In my article on abortion I've applied the same definition to 
>> the early fetus and the logic of the definition does not fit.  To force 
>> fit a definition is simple intellectual dishonesty.
>>
>>
>>           Therefore, there is no moral equivalence between recognizing 
>> people of color as persons and fetuses before 25 weeks.
>>
>>           Just being a good conservative by preserving good traditions,
>>
>>           Nick Gier
>>
>>           At 07:25 AM 1/25/2007, you wrote:
>>             Yes Nick, and under our laws in 1850, black folks could be 
>> held as slaves.  The point is professor, that it is high time the rights 
>> the rest of us enjoy are extended to today's disenfranchised: the unborn. 
>> How disappointing to see you on the wrong side of history this time. 
>> Would you have rationalized the Dred Scott decision in its day?
>>
>>             Tragic.
>>
>>             -T
>>               ----- Original Message -----
>>               From: Nick Gier
>>               To: Tony
>>               Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:31 AM
>>               Subject: Re: [Vision2020] One More "Killer" Released 
>> Because of DNA
>>               Greetings:
>>               Under our laws the crime of murder can happen only against 
>> moral and legal persons.  Our religious, moral, and legal tradition does 
>> not recognize first and second trimester fetuses as persons.  Once again 
>> I provide the link for my essay on abortion: 
>> www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/abortion.htm.
>>               Fetuses are of course biological human beings from 
>> conception on, but so are thousands of other animal species.  As a 
>> vegetarian I'm quite willing to shift to a consistent pro-life position, 
>> but I believe that most people are not willing to do this.  The moral 
>> ball is in their court, and it's their serve.
>>               Veggie Burgers Forever!
>>               Nick Gier
>>               At 09:22 AM 1/24/2007, you wrote:
>>                 Nick, I was heartened to see you change your mind with 
>> regard to abortion. You are absolutely correct that the state should not 
>> be in the business of premeditated murder, especially in the case of 
>> those who are innocent in EVERY case. It is such a joy to see reason and 
>> compassion prevail. Best,   -T ----- Original Message ----- From: 
>> <nickgier at adelphia.net> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com> Sent: Wednesday, 
>> January 24, 2007 8:57 AM Subject: [Vision2020] One More "Killer" Released 
>> Because of DNA > Greetings: > > Fortunately, most DNA exonerations are 
>> happening with prisoners who are > still alive.  The real injustice, 
>> however, is those, now over 100, who > were executed before the tests 
>> could be done. > > The state should not be in the business of 
>> premeditated murder, especially > if it cannot be sure of that its 
>> victims are guilty. >
>> > Nick Gier > > January 24, 2007, NY Times > With DNA From Exhumed Body,
>>Man Finally Wins Freedom > By FERNANDA SANTOS > > AUBURN, N.Y., Jan. 23 - 
>>Roy Brown, who spent 15 yeears in prison on a > murder conviction and 
>>uncovered evidence while there that linked another > man to the crime, was 
>>released from prison on Tuesday after DNA tests on > the other manâ?Ts 
>>exhumed body matched saliva on a nightshirt at the crime > scene. > > 
>>After 15 years behind bars, Mr. Brown stepped out of court into a light > 
>>snowfall and gently pushed his way through a cluster of relatives who vied
>> > for his attention. The reception was fine, he said, but he is too sick 
>> >  >
>>with liver disease to stand on his feet for long. > > â?oChanges have got 
>>to be made, man,â? Mr. Brown said later at a lawyerâ?Ts > office across 
>>the street, answering questions in a monotone as he rested > awkwardly in 
>>a black swivel chair. â?oThey say the wheels of justice move > slowly, but 
>>you know what? The wheels of justice are flat.� > > Mr. Brown, 46, is 
>>the eighth person in New York State exonerated through > DNA evidence in 
>>the past 13 months, more than in any other state during > the same period. 
>> > > The DNA tests that freed him confirmed the results of his own 
>>jailhouse > investigation, in which he discovered documents that 
>>incriminated Barry > Bench, a volunteer firefighter, in the murder of 
>>Sabina Kulakowski, 49, a > social worker who had lived with Mr. Benchâ?Ts 
>>brother until months before
>> > her death. Earlier DNA tests conducted by Mr. Brownâ?Ts lawyers linked
>>Mr. > Benchâ?Ts daughter, Katherine Eckstadt, to the genetic code lifted 
>>from the > saliva on Ms. Kulakowskiâ?Ts nightshirt. > > 
>>======================================================= > List services 
>>made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the 
>>Palouse since 1994. >               http://www.fsr.net > 
>>mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com > 
>>======================================================= > > 
>>======================================================= List services made 
>>available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse 
>>since 1994.                  http://www.fsr.net 
>>mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com 
>>=======================================================
>>               "Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application 
>> of it to human affairs."
>>               --Ralph Waldo Emerson
>>               "Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human 
>> beings who represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."
>>                --Mohandas Gandhi
>>               "Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system 
>> cannot be discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying 
>> each part by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole 
>> and on the interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our 
>> intellectual life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, 
>> religion, and art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its 
>> various parts." --Max Planck
>>
>>
>>               Nicholas F. Gier
>>               Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of 
>> Idaho
>>               1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
>>               http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm
>>               208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
>>               President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
>>               http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm
>>
>>
>>     "Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application of it to 
>> human affairs."
>>
>>     --Ralph Waldo Emerson
>>
>>
>>     "Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who 
>> represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."
>>
>>      --Mohandas Gandhi
>>
>>
>>     "Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot be 
>> discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each part 
>> by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on the 
>> interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our intellectual 
>> life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, religion, and 
>> art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various 
>> parts." --Max Planck
>>
>>
>>     Nicholas F. Gier
>>
>>     Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
>>
>>     1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
>>
>>     http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm
>>
>>     208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
>>
>>     President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
>>
>>     http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm
>>
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     =======================================================
>>
>>      List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>
>>      serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>
>>                    http://www.fsr.net
>>
>>               mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>
>>     =======================================================
>>
>>
>>   "Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application of it to 
>> human affairs."
>>
>>   --Ralph Waldo Emerson
>>
>>
>>   "Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who 
>> represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."
>>
>>    --Mohandas Gandhi
>>
>>
>>   "Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot be 
>> discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each part 
>> by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on the 
>> interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our intellectual 
>> life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, religion, and 
>> art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various 
>> parts." --Max Planck
>>
>>
>>   Nicholas F. Gier
>>
>>   Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
>>
>>   1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
>>
>>   http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm
>>
>>   208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
>>
>>   President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
>>
>>   http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>   =======================================================
>>
>>    List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>
>>    serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>
>>                  http://www.fsr.net
>>
>>             mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>
>>   =======================================================
>>
>>
>>   "Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application of it to 
>> human affairs."
>>   --Ralph Waldo Emerson
>>
>>   "Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who 
>> represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."
>>    --Mohandas Gandhi
>>
>>   "Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot be 
>> discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each part 
>> by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on the 
>> interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our intellectual 
>> life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, religion, and 
>> art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various 
>> parts." --Max Planck
>>
>>   Nicholas F. Gier
>>   Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
>>   1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
>>   http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm
>>   208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
>>   President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
>>   http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>   =======================================================
>>    List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>    serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>                  http://www.fsr.net
>>             mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>   =======================================================
>
>
>>=======================================================
>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>                http://www.fsr.net
>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>=======================================================
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> FREE online classifieds from Windows Live Expo - buy and sell with people 
> you know 
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwex0010000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://expo.live.com?s_cid=Hotmail_tagline_12/06
>
> 




More information about the Vision2020 mailing list