[Vision2020] Compassion for All Life
Tony
tonytime at clearwire.net
Fri Jan 26 20:07:42 PST 2007
Uhh..... Thanks for sharing that with us Dave.
-T
----- Original Message -----
From: "david sarff" <davesway at hotmail.com>
To: <tonytime at clearwire.net>; <ngier at uidaho.edu>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for All Life
>
>
> "Is our existence no more remarkable than a muskrat when we can compose
> poetry or construct the Twin Towers? "
>
> Tony, thanks for keeping your message and tone more centered . I really
> don't mean to look down on this, it simply causes me curiosity when people
> love the self reflection factor of people stuff. When we can build a
> muskrat or even a mustard seed, I'll be more impressed.
> Dave
>
>
>>
>>Nick, your revered logic would dictate to me that the ONLY species out of
>>how many millions on this planet that is capable of sending space probes
>>beyond the solar system, composing great works of literature or carving
>>David from solid marble, is reasonably viewed as superior to the other
>>lesser endowed species. Is our existence no more remarkable than a
>>muskrat when we can compose poetry or construct the Twin Towers?
>>
>>Yes, human being is a biological category, but one of extraordinary
>>uniqueness, endowed over and above the others in a myriad of ways. They
>>are also, according to our Declaration, deserving of and endowed with,
>>certain unalienable rights, one of which is the right to life. And
>>therein your dilemma. You can cling tenaciously to an irrelevancy, are
>>they persons or non persons, but you cannot deny their humanity. It seems
>>Nick, that you pick and choose which written declarations you will adhere
>>to. I suppose we all must. Is the Supreme Court the entity I most trust
>>in deciding these matters, or do I rely on the wisdom of those who drafted
>>the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution? Guess I'll stick
>>with the latter. You apparently prefer the former, as is your right. I
>>will continue to oppose the premeditated killing of innocent human beings,
>>but I am willing to agree to disagree with you if you choose a different
>>path.
>>
>>Sincerely, -Tony
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Nick Gier
>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 9:29 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for All Life
>>
>>
>> Greetings:
>>
>> I will continue to repeat points of logic as long as some refuse to
>> recognize them. If logic is "heartless," but the only way that we can
>> communicate rationally, then so be it. Rational discourse is not
>> regulated by "what folks say," but, heartlessly enough, by the rules of
>> logic.
>>
>> "Person" is a moral and legal category, whereas "human being" is a
>> biological category. The fetus is a unique living being at conception,
>> but so are all higher animal fetuses, so we cannot draw any moral
>> conclusions from this fact. But that it also means that we don't draw
>> the absurd conclusion that a human=pig=rat=salamander. Of course they are
>> physically different, but are they morally different?
>>
>> The basic question is: how do we draw the basic moral distinction? Our
>> moral, legal, tradition has chosen "significant cognitive function" as
>> the line between persons and non-persons, and the science of fetal
>> development demonstrates that this does not appear until about 25 weeks.
>>
>> In answer to Kai's response to me, let me remind him that I started
>> with the condition statement: "If "significant cognitive functioning" . .
>> . is not the way we sort out persons from non-persons, . . ."
>>
>> I support this traditional view, so everything that follows after that
>> is hypothetical, and I deliberately hyped it so as to show that it simply
>> won't happen, even though our biosphere would improve dramatically if it
>> did.
>>
>> For at least 6,000 years, thousands of Hindus and Jains have eaten a
>> strict vegetarian diet. During that time they developed systems of
>> logic, science, and math that are amazing. For example, we owe to them
>> the invention of the zero.
>>
>> But even if Kai is correct that meat eating was necessary for the early
>> development of the human brain, we now have the technology to thrive on a
>> nonmeat diet, one that I believe is necessary to alleviate the
>> environmental disaster of increasing cattle raising.
>>
>> Would anyone like to participate in my soy bologna taste test? I'll
>> give you fair warning: many people have chosen the soy product as the
>> "real" bologna!
>>
>> Veggie Burgers Forever,
>>
>> Nick Gier
>>
>>
>> At 08:24 AM 1/26/2007, you wrote:
>>
>> Nick, "persons from non-persons" is a heartless rationalization. The
>> question is: human or non-human. I understand that you feel a pig is a
>> rat is a boy - that human beings have the exact same value in your world
>> as say, a salamander. Most folks would question such a value system
>> however, whether from a religious standpoint or otherwise.
>>
>> As for veggie burgers, I might consider switching over if we used
>> Paul's recipe.
>>
>> Later, -T
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Nick Gier
>>
>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 9:41 AM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for All Life
>>
>>
>> Greetings:
>>
>>
>> If "significant cognitive functioning" (beautiful description of
>> the traditional view!) is not the way we sort out persons from
>> non-persons, then please join with me in extending unconditional
>> compassion to all the animals that are killed every day to feed the
>> several billion carnivorous maws all over the world.
>>
>>
>> This is an unnecessary slaughter because we can grow complete
>> vegetable protein at a much lower cost and with much less damage to the
>> environment. Just as the earth and its atmosphere cannot bear developing
>> countries owning as many cars as we do, neither can the earth bear the
>> increased meat consumption that these countries are experiencing.
>>
>>
>> Both addictions, one to oil and the other to animal flesh, will be
>> the end of us. Millions of acres of the Amazonian rain forest are cut
>> ever year to make way for raising beef cattle, pouring tons of CO2 and
>> CH4 (from bovine stomachs) into the air.
>>
>>
>> If the tradition distinction between persons and non-persons is
>> ignored, then the only moral option is to recognize that all life has a
>> serious moral right to live.
>>
>>
>> Veggie Burgers Forever!
>>
>>
>> Nick Gier
>>
>> Oh professor, how you cling to a specious distinction. You may
>> view "significant cognitive functioning" as helpful in defining
>> personhood so as to rationalize killing, but it is still the taking of a
>> human life. For humans who were allowed to grow to adulthood unmolested
>> to decide to kill those who have yet to develope fully is the very height
>> of callousness and insensetivity. You can blame tradition all you like
>> but as I pointed out, tradition is frequently wrong and in this case you
>> are tragically wrong along with it.
>>
>>
>>
>> What kind of an ethical vacuum do you live in which regards the
>> murder of the innocent as a "good tradition?" If you truly believe this,
>> you are not being intellectually honest, but rather morally bankrupt.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now go grow some compassion. -T
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Nick Gier
>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 8:59 AM
>> Subject: [Vision2020] African Americans and Fetuses
>>
>> Greetings:
>>
>> The traditional view of moral and legal persons, coming from
>> our combined religious, moral, and legal histories, eventually won out
>> with regard to recognizing African Americans as full moral and legal
>> persons. In my article on abortion I've applied the same definition to
>> the early fetus and the logic of the definition does not fit. To force
>> fit a definition is simple intellectual dishonesty.
>>
>>
>> Therefore, there is no moral equivalence between recognizing
>> people of color as persons and fetuses before 25 weeks.
>>
>> Just being a good conservative by preserving good traditions,
>>
>> Nick Gier
>>
>> At 07:25 AM 1/25/2007, you wrote:
>> Yes Nick, and under our laws in 1850, black folks could be
>> held as slaves. The point is professor, that it is high time the rights
>> the rest of us enjoy are extended to today's disenfranchised: the unborn.
>> How disappointing to see you on the wrong side of history this time.
>> Would you have rationalized the Dred Scott decision in its day?
>>
>> Tragic.
>>
>> -T
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Nick Gier
>> To: Tony
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:31 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] One More "Killer" Released
>> Because of DNA
>> Greetings:
>> Under our laws the crime of murder can happen only against
>> moral and legal persons. Our religious, moral, and legal tradition does
>> not recognize first and second trimester fetuses as persons. Once again
>> I provide the link for my essay on abortion:
>> www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/abortion.htm.
>> Fetuses are of course biological human beings from
>> conception on, but so are thousands of other animal species. As a
>> vegetarian I'm quite willing to shift to a consistent pro-life position,
>> but I believe that most people are not willing to do this. The moral
>> ball is in their court, and it's their serve.
>> Veggie Burgers Forever!
>> Nick Gier
>> At 09:22 AM 1/24/2007, you wrote:
>> Nick, I was heartened to see you change your mind with
>> regard to abortion. You are absolutely correct that the state should not
>> be in the business of premeditated murder, especially in the case of
>> those who are innocent in EVERY case. It is such a joy to see reason and
>> compassion prevail. Best, -T ----- Original Message ----- From:
>> <nickgier at adelphia.net> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com> Sent: Wednesday,
>> January 24, 2007 8:57 AM Subject: [Vision2020] One More "Killer" Released
>> Because of DNA > Greetings: > > Fortunately, most DNA exonerations are
>> happening with prisoners who are > still alive. The real injustice,
>> however, is those, now over 100, who > were executed before the tests
>> could be done. > > The state should not be in the business of
>> premeditated murder, especially > if it cannot be sure of that its
>> victims are guilty. >
>> > Nick Gier > > January 24, 2007, NY Times > With DNA From Exhumed Body,
>>Man Finally Wins Freedom > By FERNANDA SANTOS > > AUBURN, N.Y., Jan. 23 -
>>Roy Brown, who spent 15 yeears in prison on a > murder conviction and
>>uncovered evidence while there that linked another > man to the crime, was
>>released from prison on Tuesday after DNA tests on > the other manâ?Ts
>>exhumed body matched saliva on a nightshirt at the crime > scene. > >
>>After 15 years behind bars, Mr. Brown stepped out of court into a light >
>>snowfall and gently pushed his way through a cluster of relatives who vied
>> > for his attention. The reception was fine, he said, but he is too sick
>> > >
>>with liver disease to stand on his feet for long. > > â?oChanges have got
>>to be made, man,â? Mr. Brown said later at a lawyerâ?Ts > office across
>>the street, answering questions in a monotone as he rested > awkwardly in
>>a black swivel chair. â?oThey say the wheels of justice move > slowly, but
>>you know what? The wheels of justice are flat.â? > > Mr. Brown, 46, is
>>the eighth person in New York State exonerated through > DNA evidence in
>>the past 13 months, more than in any other state during > the same period.
>> > > The DNA tests that freed him confirmed the results of his own
>>jailhouse > investigation, in which he discovered documents that
>>incriminated Barry > Bench, a volunteer firefighter, in the murder of
>>Sabina Kulakowski, 49, a > social worker who had lived with Mr. Benchâ?Ts
>>brother until months before
>> > her death. Earlier DNA tests conducted by Mr. Brownâ?Ts lawyers linked
>>Mr. > Benchâ?Ts daughter, Katherine Eckstadt, to the genetic code lifted
>>from the > saliva on Ms. Kulakowskiâ?Ts nightshirt. > >
>>======================================================= > List services
>>made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the
>>Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net >
>>mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com >
>>======================================================= > >
>>======================================================= List services made
>>available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse
>>since 1994. http://www.fsr.net
>>mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>=======================================================
>> "Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application
>> of it to human affairs."
>> --Ralph Waldo Emerson
>> "Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human
>> beings who represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."
>> --Mohandas Gandhi
>> "Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system
>> cannot be discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying
>> each part by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole
>> and on the interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our
>> intellectual life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between science,
>> religion, and art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its
>> various parts." --Max Planck
>>
>>
>> Nicholas F. Gier
>> Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of
>> Idaho
>> 1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
>> http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm
>> 208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
>> President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
>> http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm
>>
>>
>> "Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application of it to
>> human affairs."
>>
>> --Ralph Waldo Emerson
>>
>>
>> "Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who
>> represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."
>>
>> --Mohandas Gandhi
>>
>>
>> "Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot be
>> discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each part
>> by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on the
>> interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our intellectual
>> life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, religion, and
>> art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various
>> parts." --Max Planck
>>
>>
>> Nicholas F. Gier
>>
>> Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
>>
>> 1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
>>
>> http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm
>>
>> 208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
>>
>> President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
>>
>> http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm
>>
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> =======================================================
>>
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>
>> http://www.fsr.net
>>
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>
>> =======================================================
>>
>>
>> "Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application of it to
>> human affairs."
>>
>> --Ralph Waldo Emerson
>>
>>
>> "Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who
>> represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."
>>
>> --Mohandas Gandhi
>>
>>
>> "Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot be
>> discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each part
>> by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on the
>> interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our intellectual
>> life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, religion, and
>> art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various
>> parts." --Max Planck
>>
>>
>> Nicholas F. Gier
>>
>> Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
>>
>> 1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
>>
>> http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm
>>
>> 208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
>>
>> President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
>>
>> http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> =======================================================
>>
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>
>> http://www.fsr.net
>>
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>
>> =======================================================
>>
>>
>> "Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application of it to
>> human affairs."
>> --Ralph Waldo Emerson
>>
>> "Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who
>> represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."
>> --Mohandas Gandhi
>>
>> "Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot be
>> discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each part
>> by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on the
>> interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our intellectual
>> life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, religion, and
>> art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various
>> parts." --Max Planck
>>
>> Nicholas F. Gier
>> Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
>> 1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
>> http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm
>> 208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
>> President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
>> http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>
>
>>=======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>=======================================================
>
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