[Vision2020] Compassion for All Life
david sarff
davesway at hotmail.com
Fri Jan 26 19:06:18 PST 2007
"Is our existence no more remarkable than a muskrat when we can compose
poetry or construct the Twin Towers? "
Tony, thanks for keeping your message and tone more centered . I really
don’t mean to look down on this, it simply causes me curiosity when people
love the self reflection factor of people stuff. When we can build a muskrat
or even a mustard seed, I’ll be more impressed.
Dave
>
>Nick, your revered logic would dictate to me that the ONLY species out of
>how many millions on this planet that is capable of sending space probes
>beyond the solar system, composing great works of literature or carving
>David from solid marble, is reasonably viewed as superior to the other
>lesser endowed species. Is our existence no more remarkable than a muskrat
>when we can compose poetry or construct the Twin Towers?
>
>Yes, human being is a biological category, but one of extraordinary
>uniqueness, endowed over and above the others in a myriad of ways. They
>are also, according to our Declaration, deserving of and endowed with,
>certain unalienable rights, one of which is the right to life. And therein
>your dilemma. You can cling tenaciously to an irrelevancy, are they
>persons or non persons, but you cannot deny their humanity. It seems Nick,
>that you pick and choose which written declarations you will adhere to. I
>suppose we all must. Is the Supreme Court the entity I most trust in
>deciding these matters, or do I rely on the wisdom of those who drafted the
>Declaration of Independence and our Constitution? Guess I'll stick with
>the latter. You apparently prefer the former, as is your right. I will
>continue to oppose the premeditated killing of innocent human beings, but I
>am willing to agree to disagree with you if you choose a different path.
>
>Sincerely, -Tony
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Nick Gier
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 9:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for All Life
>
>
> Greetings:
>
> I will continue to repeat points of logic as long as some refuse to
>recognize them. If logic is "heartless," but the only way that we can
>communicate rationally, then so be it. Rational discourse is not regulated
>by "what folks say," but, heartlessly enough, by the rules of logic.
>
> "Person" is a moral and legal category, whereas "human being" is a
>biological category. The fetus is a unique living being at conception, but
>so are all higher animal fetuses, so we cannot draw any moral conclusions
>from this fact. But that it also means that we don't draw the absurd
>conclusion that a human=pig=rat=salamander. Of course they are physically
>different, but are they morally different?
>
> The basic question is: how do we draw the basic moral distinction? Our
>moral, legal, tradition has chosen "significant cognitive function" as the
>line between persons and non-persons, and the science of fetal development
>demonstrates that this does not appear until about 25 weeks.
>
> In answer to Kai's response to me, let me remind him that I started with
>the condition statement: "If "significant cognitive functioning" . . . is
>not the way we sort out persons from non-persons, . . ."
>
> I support this traditional view, so everything that follows after that
>is hypothetical, and I deliberately hyped it so as to show that it simply
>won't happen, even though our biosphere would improve dramatically if it
>did.
>
> For at least 6,000 years, thousands of Hindus and Jains have eaten a
>strict vegetarian diet. During that time they developed systems of logic,
>science, and math that are amazing. For example, we owe to them the
>invention of the zero.
>
> But even if Kai is correct that meat eating was necessary for the early
>development of the human brain, we now have the technology to thrive on a
>nonmeat diet, one that I believe is necessary to alleviate the
>environmental disaster of increasing cattle raising.
>
> Would anyone like to participate in my soy bologna taste test? I'll
>give you fair warning: many people have chosen the soy product as the
>"real" bologna!
>
> Veggie Burgers Forever,
>
> Nick Gier
>
>
> At 08:24 AM 1/26/2007, you wrote:
>
> Nick, "persons from non-persons" is a heartless rationalization. The
>question is: human or non-human. I understand that you feel a pig is a rat
>is a boy - that human beings have the exact same value in your world as
>say, a salamander. Most folks would question such a value system however,
>whether from a religious standpoint or otherwise.
>
> As for veggie burgers, I might consider switching over if we used
>Paul's recipe.
>
> Later, -T
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Nick Gier
>
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>
> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 9:41 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for All Life
>
>
> Greetings:
>
>
> If "significant cognitive functioning" (beautiful description of the
>traditional view!) is not the way we sort out persons from non-persons,
>then please join with me in extending unconditional compassion to all the
>animals that are killed every day to feed the several billion carnivorous
>maws all over the world.
>
>
> This is an unnecessary slaughter because we can grow complete
>vegetable protein at a much lower cost and with much less damage to the
>environment. Just as the earth and its atmosphere cannot bear developing
>countries owning as many cars as we do, neither can the earth bear the
>increased meat consumption that these countries are experiencing.
>
>
> Both addictions, one to oil and the other to animal flesh, will be
>the end of us. Millions of acres of the Amazonian rain forest are cut ever
>year to make way for raising beef cattle, pouring tons of CO2 and CH4 (from
>bovine stomachs) into the air.
>
>
> If the tradition distinction between persons and non-persons is
>ignored, then the only moral option is to recognize that all life has a
>serious moral right to live.
>
>
> Veggie Burgers Forever!
>
>
> Nick Gier
>
> Oh professor, how you cling to a specious distinction. You may
>view "significant cognitive functioning" as helpful in defining personhood
>so as to rationalize killing, but it is still the taking of a human life.
>For humans who were allowed to grow to adulthood unmolested to decide to
>kill those who have yet to develope fully is the very height of callousness
>and insensetivity. You can blame tradition all you like but as I pointed
>out, tradition is frequently wrong and in this case you are tragically
>wrong along with it.
>
>
>
> What kind of an ethical vacuum do you live in which regards the
>murder of the innocent as a "good tradition?" If you truly believe this,
>you are not being intellectually honest, but rather morally bankrupt.
>
>
>
> Now go grow some compassion. -T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Nick Gier
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 8:59 AM
> Subject: [Vision2020] African Americans and Fetuses
>
> Greetings:
>
> The traditional view of moral and legal persons, coming from our
>combined religious, moral, and legal histories, eventually won out with
>regard to recognizing African Americans as full moral and legal persons.
>In my article on abortion I've applied the same definition to the early
>fetus and the logic of the definition does not fit. To force fit a
>definition is simple intellectual dishonesty.
>
>
> Therefore, there is no moral equivalence between recognizing
>people of color as persons and fetuses before 25 weeks.
>
> Just being a good conservative by preserving good traditions,
>
> Nick Gier
>
> At 07:25 AM 1/25/2007, you wrote:
> Yes Nick, and under our laws in 1850, black folks could be
>held as slaves. The point is professor, that it is high time the rights
>the rest of us enjoy are extended to today's disenfranchised: the unborn.
>How disappointing to see you on the wrong side of history this time. Would
>you have rationalized the Dred Scott decision in its day?
>
> Tragic.
>
> -T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Nick Gier
> To: Tony
> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] One More "Killer" Released Because
>of DNA
> Greetings:
> Under our laws the crime of murder can happen only against
>moral and legal persons. Our religious, moral, and legal tradition does
>not recognize first and second trimester fetuses as persons. Once again I
>provide the link for my essay on abortion:
>www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/abortion.htm.
> Fetuses are of course biological human beings from
>conception on, but so are thousands of other animal species. As a
>vegetarian I'm quite willing to shift to a consistent pro-life position,
>but I believe that most people are not willing to do this. The moral ball
>is in their court, and it's their serve.
> Veggie Burgers Forever!
> Nick Gier
> At 09:22 AM 1/24/2007, you wrote:
> Nick, I was heartened to see you change your mind with
>regard to abortion. You are absolutely correct that the state should not be
>in the business of premeditated murder, especially in the case of those who
>are innocent in EVERY case. It is such a joy to see reason and compassion
>prevail. Best, -T ----- Original Message ----- From:
><nickgier at adelphia.net> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com> Sent: Wednesday,
>January 24, 2007 8:57 AM Subject: [Vision2020] One More "Killer" Released
>Because of DNA > Greetings: > > Fortunately, most DNA exonerations are
>happening with prisoners who are > still alive. The real injustice,
>however, is those, now over 100, who > were executed before the tests could
>be done. > > The state should not be in the business of premeditated
>murder, especially > if it cannot be sure of that its victims are guilty. >
> > Nick Gier > > January 24, 2007, NY Times > With DNA From Exhumed Body,
>Man Finally Wins Freedom > By FERNANDA SANTOS > > AUBURN, N.Y., Jan. 23 -
>Roy Brown, who spent 15 yeears in prison on a > murder conviction and
>uncovered evidence while there that linked another > man to the crime, was
>released from prison on Tuesday after DNA tests on > the other manâ?Ts
>exhumed body matched saliva on a nightshirt at the crime > scene. > > After
>15 years behind bars, Mr. Brown stepped out of court into a light >
>snowfall and gently pushed his way through a cluster of relatives who vied
> > for his attention. The reception was fine, he said, but he is too sick >
>with liver disease to stand on his feet for long. > > â?oChanges have got
>to be made, man,â? Mr. Brown said later at a lawyerâ?Ts > office across
>the street, answering questions in a monotone as he rested > awkwardly in a
>black swivel chair. â?oThey say the wheels of justice move > slowly, but
>you know what? The wheels of justice are flat.â? > > Mr. Brown, 46, is the
>eighth person in New York State exonerated through > DNA evidence in the
>past 13 months, more than in any other state during > the same period. > >
>The DNA tests that freed him confirmed the results of his own jailhouse >
>investigation, in which he discovered documents that incriminated Barry >
>Bench, a volunteer firefighter, in the murder of Sabina Kulakowski, 49, a >
>social worker who had lived with Mr. Benchâ?Ts brother until months before
> > her death. Earlier DNA tests conducted by Mr. Brownâ?Ts lawyers linked
>Mr. > Benchâ?Ts daughter, Katherine Eckstadt, to the genetic code lifted
>from the > saliva on Ms. Kulakowskiâ?Ts nightshirt. > >
>======================================================= > List services
>made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the
>Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net >
>mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com >
>======================================================= > >
>======================================================= List services made
>available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse
>since 1994. http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>=======================================================
> "Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application of
>it to human affairs."
> --Ralph Waldo Emerson
> "Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human
>beings who represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."
> --Mohandas Gandhi
> "Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system
>cannot be discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying
>each part by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and
>on the interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our
>intellectual life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between science,
>religion, and art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its
>various parts." --Max Planck
>
>
> Nicholas F. Gier
> Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of
>Idaho
> 1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
> http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm
> 208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
> President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
> http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm
>
>
> "Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application of it to
>human affairs."
>
> --Ralph Waldo Emerson
>
>
> "Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who
>represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."
>
> --Mohandas Gandhi
>
>
> "Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot be
>discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each part
>by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on the
>interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our intellectual
>life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, religion, and
>art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various parts."
>--Max Planck
>
>
> Nicholas F. Gier
>
> Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
>
> 1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
>
> http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm
>
> 208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
>
> President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
>
> http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> =======================================================
>
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>
> http://www.fsr.net
>
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>
> =======================================================
>
>
> "Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application of it to human
>affairs."
>
> --Ralph Waldo Emerson
>
>
> "Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who
>represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."
>
> --Mohandas Gandhi
>
>
> "Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot be
>discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each part
>by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on the
>interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our intellectual
>life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, religion, and
>art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various parts."
>--Max Planck
>
>
> Nicholas F. Gier
>
> Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
>
> 1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
>
> http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm
>
> 208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
>
> President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
>
> http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> =======================================================
>
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>
> http://www.fsr.net
>
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>
> =======================================================
>
>
> "Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application of it to human
>affairs."
> --Ralph Waldo Emerson
>
> "Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who
>represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."
> --Mohandas Gandhi
>
> "Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot be
>discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each part
>by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on the
>interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our intellectual
>life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, religion, and
>art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various parts."
>--Max Planck
>
> Nicholas F. Gier
> Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
> 1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
> http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm
> 208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
> President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
> http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>=======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>=======================================================
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