[Vision2020] Compassion for All Life
Nick Gier
ngier at uidaho.edu
Fri Jan 26 09:29:07 PST 2007
Greetings:
I will continue to repeat points of logic as long
as some refuse to recognize them. If logic is
"heartless," but the only way that we can
communicate rationally, then so be it. Rational
discourse is not regulated by "what folks say,"
but, heartlessly enough, by the rules of logic.
"Person" is a moral and legal category, whereas
"human being" is a biological category. The
fetus is a unique living being at conception, but
so are all higher animal fetuses, so we cannot
draw any moral conclusions from this fact. But
that it also means that we don't draw the absurd
conclusion that a human=pig=rat=salamander. Of
course they are physically different, but are they morally different?
The basic question is: how do we draw the basic
moral distinction? Our moral, legal, tradition
has chosen "significant cognitive function" as
the line between persons and non-persons, and the
science of fetal development demonstrates that
this does not appear until about 25 weeks.
In answer to Kai's response to me, let me remind
him that I started with the condition statement:
"If "significant cognitive functioning" . . . is
not the way we sort out persons from non-persons, . . ."
I support this traditional view, so everything
that follows after that is hypothetical, and I
deliberately hyped it so as to show that it
simply won't happen, even though our biosphere
would improve dramatically if it did.
For at least 6,000 years, thousands of Hindus and
Jains have eaten a strict vegetarian
diet. During that time they developed systems of
logic, science, and math that are amazing. For
example, we owe to them the invention of the zero.
But even if Kai is correct that meat eating was
necessary for the early development of the human
brain, we now have the technology to thrive on a
nonmeat diet, one that I believe is necessary to
alleviate the environmental disaster of increasing cattle raising.
Would anyone like to participate in my soy
bologna taste test? I'll give you fair warning:
many people have chosen the soy product as the "real" bologna!
Veggie Burgers Forever,
Nick Gier
At 08:24 AM 1/26/2007, you wrote:
>Nick, "persons from non-persons" is a heartless
>rationalization. The question is: human or
>non-human. I understand that you feel a pig is
>a rat is a boy - that human beings have the
>exact same value in your world as say, a
>salamander. Most folks would question such a
>value system however, whether from a religious standpoint or otherwise.
>
>As for veggie burgers, I might consider
>switching over if we used Paul's recipe.
>
>Later, -T
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:ngier at uidaho.edu>Nick Gier
>To: <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>vision2020 at moscow.com
>Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 9:41 AM
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for All Life
>
>Greetings:
>
>If "significant cognitive functioning"
>(beautiful description of the traditional view!)
>is not the way we sort out persons from
>non-persons, then please join with me in
>extending unconditional compassion to all the
>animals that are killed every day to feed the
>several billion carnivorous maws all over the world.
>
>This is an unnecessary slaughter because we can
>grow complete vegetable protein at a much lower
>cost and with much less damage to the
>environment. Just as the earth and its
>atmosphere cannot bear developing countries
>owning as many cars as we do, neither can the
>earth bear the increased meat consumption that
>these countries are experiencing.
>
>Both addictions, one to oil and the other to
>animal flesh, will be the end of us. Millions
>of acres of the Amazonian rain forest are cut
>ever year to make way for raising beef cattle,
>pouring tons of CO2 and CH4 (from bovine stomachs) into the air.
>
>If the tradition distinction between persons and
>non-persons is ignored, then the only moral
>option is to recognize that all life has a serious moral right to live.
>
>Veggie Burgers Forever!
>
>Nick Gier
>>Oh professor, how you cling to a specious
>>distinction. You may view "significant
>>cognitive functioning" as helpful in defining
>>personhood so as to rationalize killing, but it
>>is still the taking of a human life. For
>>humans who were allowed to grow to adulthood
>>unmolested to decide to kill those who have yet
>>to develope fully is the very height of
>>callousness and insensetivity. You can blame
>>tradition all you like but as I pointed out,
>>tradition is frequently wrong and in this case
>>you are tragically wrong along with it.
>>
>>What kind of an ethical vacuum do you live in
>>which regards the murder of the innocent as a
>>"good tradition?" If you truly believe this,
>>you are not being intellectually honest, but rather morally bankrupt.
>>
>>Now go grow some compassion. -T
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: <mailto:ngier at uidaho.edu>Nick Gier
>>To: <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 8:59 AM
>>Subject: [Vision2020] African Americans and Fetuses
>>Greetings:
>>The traditional view of moral and legal
>>persons, coming from our combined religious,
>>moral, and legal histories, eventually won out
>>with regard to recognizing African Americans as
>>full moral and legal persons. In my article on
>>abortion I've applied the same definition to
>>the early fetus and the logic of the definition
>>does not fit. To force fit a definition is simple intellectual dishonesty.
>>
>>Therefore, there is no moral equivalence
>>between recognizing people of color as persons and fetuses before 25 weeks.
>>Just being a good conservative by preserving good traditions,
>>Nick Gier
>>At 07:25 AM 1/25/2007, you wrote:
>>>Yes Nick, and under our laws in 1850, black
>>>folks could be held as slaves. The point is
>>>professor, that it is high time the rights the
>>>rest of us enjoy are extended to today's
>>>disenfranchised: the unborn. How
>>>disappointing to see you on the wrong side of
>>>history this time. Would you have
>>>rationalized the Dred Scott decision in its day?
>>>
>>>Tragic.
>>>
>>>-T
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: <mailto:ngier at uidaho.edu>Nick Gier
>>>To: <mailto:tonytime at clearwire.net>Tony
>>>Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:31 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] One More "Killer" Released Because of DNA
>>>Greetings:
>>>Under our laws the crime of murder can happen
>>>only against moral and legal persons. Our
>>>religious, moral, and legal tradition does not
>>>recognize first and second trimester fetuses
>>>as persons. Once again I provide the link for
>>>my essay on abortion: www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/abortion.htm.
>>>Fetuses are of course biological human beings
>>>from conception on, but so are thousands of
>>>other animal species. As a vegetarian I'm
>>>quite willing to shift to a consistent
>>>pro-life position, but I believe that most
>>>people are not willing to do this. The moral
>>>ball is in their court, and it's their serve.
>>>Veggie Burgers Forever!
>>>Nick Gier
>>>At 09:22 AM 1/24/2007, you wrote:
>>>>Nick, I was heartened to see you change your
>>>>mind with regard to abortion. You are
>>>>absolutely correct that the state should not
>>>>be in the business of premeditated murder,
>>>>especially in the case of those who are
>>>>innocent in EVERY case. It is such a joy to
>>>>see reason and compassion prevail. Best, -T
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From:
>>>><nickgier at adelphia.net> To:
>>>><vision2020 at moscow.com> Sent: Wednesday,
>>>>January 24, 2007 8:57 AM Subject:
>>>>[Vision2020] One More "Killer" Released
>>>>Because of DNA > Greetings: > > Fortunately,
>>>>most DNA exonerations are happening with
>>>>prisoners who are > still alive. The real
>>>>injustice, however, is those, now over 100,
>>>>who > were executed before the tests could be
>>>>done. > > The state should not be in the
>>>>business of premeditated murder, especially >
>>>>if it cannot be sure of that its victims are
>>>>guilty. > > Nick Gier > > January 24, 2007,
>>>>NY Times > With DNA From Exhumed Body, Man
>>>>Finally Wins Freedom > By FERNANDA SANTOS > >
>>>>AUBURN, N.Y., Jan. 23 — Roy Brown, who spent
>>>>15 yeears in prison on a > murder conviction
>>>>and uncovered evidence while there that
>>>>linked another > man to the crime, was
>>>>released from prison on Tuesday after DNA
>>>>tests on > the other man’s exhumed body
>>>>matched saliva on a nightshirt at the crime >
>>>>scene. > > After 15 years behind bars, Mr.
>>>>Brown stepped out of court into a light >
>>>>snowfall and gently pushed his way through a
>>>>cluster of relatives who vied > for his
>>>>attention. The reception was fine, he said,
>>>>but he is too sick > with liver disease to
>>>>stand on his feet for long. > > “Changes
>>>>have got to be made, man,†Mr. Brown said
>>>>later at a lawyer’s > office across the
>>>>street, answering questions in a monotone as
>>>>he rested > awkwardly in a black swivel
>>>>chair. “They say the wheels of justice
>>>>move > slowly, but you know what? The wheels
>>>>of justice are flat.†> > Mr. Brown, 46, is
>>>>the eighth person in New York State
>>>>exonerated through > DNA evidence in the past
>>>>13 months, more than in any other state
>>>>during > the same period. > > The DNA tests
>>>>that freed him confirmed the results of his
>>>>own jailhouse > investigation, in which he
>>>>discovered documents that incriminated
>>>>Barry > Bench, a volunteer firefighter, in
>>>>the murder of Sabina Kulakowski, 49, a >
>>>>social worker who had lived with Mr.
>>>>Bench’s brother until months before > her
>>>>death. Earlier DNA tests conducted by Mr.
>>>>Brown’s lawyers linked Mr. > Bench’s
>>>>daughter, Katherine Eckstadt, to the genetic
>>>>code lifted from the > saliva on Ms.
>>>>Kulakowski’s nightshirt. > >
>>>>=======================================================
>>>> > List services made available by First Step
>>>>Internet, > serving the communities of the
>>>>Palouse since
>>>>1994. > http://www.fsr.net >
>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com >
>>>>=======================================================
>>>> > >
>>>>=======================================================
>>>>List services made available by First Step
>>>>Internet, serving the communities of the
>>>>Palouse since
>>>>1994. http://www.fsr.net
>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>=======================================================
>>>"Truth is the summit of being; justice is the
>>>application of it to human affairs."
>>>--Ralph Waldo Emerson
>>>"Abstract truth has no value unless it
>>>incarnates in human beings who represent it,
>>>by proving their readiness to die for it."
>>> --Mohandas Gandhi
>>>"Modern physics has taught us that the nature
>>>of any system cannot be discovered by dividing
>>>it into its component parts and studying each
>>>part by itself. . . .We must keep our
>>>attention fixed on the whole and on the
>>>interconnection between the parts. The same is
>>>true of our intellectual life. It is
>>>impossible to make a clear cut between
>>>science, religion, and art. The whole is never
>>>equal simply to the sum of its various parts." --Max Planck
>>>
>>>Nicholas F. Gier
>>>Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
>>>1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
>>>http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm
>>>208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
>>>President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
>>>http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm
>>
>>"Truth is the summit of being; justice is the
>>application of it to human affairs."
>>--Ralph Waldo Emerson
>>
>>"Abstract truth has no value unless it
>>incarnates in human beings who represent it, by
>>proving their readiness to die for it."
>> --Mohandas Gandhi
>>
>>"Modern physics has taught us that the nature
>>of any system cannot be discovered by dividing
>>it into its component parts and studying each
>>part by itself. . . .We must keep our attention
>>fixed on the whole and on the interconnection
>>between the parts. The same is true of our
>>intellectual life. It is impossible to make a
>>clear cut between science, religion, and art.
>>The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various parts." --Max Planck
>>
>>Nicholas F. Gier
>>Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
>>1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
>>http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm
>>208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
>>President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
>>http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm
>>
>>
>>----------
>>=======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>=======================================================
>
>"Truth is the summit of being; justice is the
>application of it to human affairs."
>--Ralph Waldo Emerson
>
>"Abstract truth has no value unless it
>incarnates in human beings who represent it, by
>proving their readiness to die for it."
> --Mohandas Gandhi
>
>"Modern physics has taught us that the nature of
>any system cannot be discovered by dividing it
>into its component parts and studying each part
>by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed
>on the whole and on the interconnection between
>the parts. The same is true of our intellectual
>life. It is impossible to make a clear cut
>between science, religion, and art. The whole is
>never equal simply to the sum of its various parts." --Max Planck
>
>Nicholas F. Gier
>Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
>1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
>http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm
>208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
>President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
>http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm
>
>
>----------
>=======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>=======================================================
"Truth is the summit of being; justice is the
application of it to human affairs."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
"Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates
in human beings who represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."
--Mohandas Gandhi
"Modern physics has taught us that the nature of
any system cannot be discovered by dividing it
into its component parts and studying each part
by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed
on the whole and on the interconnection between
the parts. The same is true of our intellectual
life. It is impossible to make a clear cut
between science, religion, and art. The whole is
never equal simply to the sum of its various parts." --Max Planck
Nicholas F. Gier
Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm
208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20070126/fdba5ded/attachment-0001.html
More information about the Vision2020
mailing list