[Vision2020] Argicultural, Energy Sustainability (Was Moscow's Growth Policies...)

[Kai Eiselein, editor]

Lol, touche' Ted "It's only Vision2020"
Lets se, my view on fossil/alternative fuel issues.
Welllllllll,
I think there are viable alternatives out there, but I suspect the oil
companies have/will crush any that may pose a threat to their stranglehold.
Why is it we can put a man on the moon, land rovers on Mars, send other
craft deep into the sloar system, but we are still using the same type of
engines for about. (Internal combustion, suck and blow type)
Once you take away the electronic control and fuel delivery systems, the
modern engine is essentially the same as ones found in the old "Tin Lizzies"
A century of improvement in every sectory of technology, yet only minor
changes in engines......... anybody else see anything wrong with this
picture? We made the leap from horses to lunar landings in less time than
that.
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Ted Moffett [mailto:starbliss at gmail.com]
  Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 2:08 PM
  To: Kai Eiselein, editor
  Cc: david sarff; Vision2020
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Argicultural, Energy Sustainability (Was
Moscow's Growth Policies...)


  Kai et. al

  Yikes.  It's only Vision2020.

  You might comment on the fossil fuel depletion/CO2/climate change crisis?
That elephant in the room most want to ignore?

  Anyway, I wrote "what seemed like "personal" attacks" with quotes around
the word "personal" meant to express doubts about whether this indeed was
the case.

  I can't speak for Dave, of course, but I did not read his comments as
suggesting you were a racist.  I read them as suggesting you expressed a
point of view toward exploitation of resources and sustainability that
forgot the Nez Perce's history, an omission many might make, myself
included, when assuming the conversation is in the context of modern farming
since the "settlement" of the USA by the mostly European population that
came west.  Dave's post expressed a view of these issues in the context of
how the land and resources were "managed" by the Nez Perce before the
Europeans "took over."  His points about the demise of certain resources
(fish) since the European "occupation" cannot be disputed.  The dams used in
part to supply water to irrigate farms along the Snake and Columbia rivers
are indisputably linked to modern farming practices damaging the fish runs
that were once a traditional aspect of the Nez Perce's use of sustainable
resources.  These issues continue today with fights over the spring fish
runs being facilitated with runoff allowed to flow through the dams reducing
the amount of water needed for irrigation.

  You asked Dave:

  "Ummmm, Dave, many of the farms in this area have been in production and
passed down through 3 generations at this point. That's about 100 years of
sustainability. There is a saying that farmers have, "Take care of the
ground and it'll take care of you."
  Please name any other family owned businesses that have been here that
long."

  Consider this question in the context of the Nez Perce use of their
traditional lands for hundreds of years prior.

  Ted Moffett



  I think you must admit that this statement was rather blatant in ignoring
the Nez Perce



  On 1/16/07, Kai Eiselein, editor <editor at lataheagle.com > wrote:
    Personal attacks?
    I asked two questions...... two.
    I knew nothing about Dave, his ag background or anything. He went off on
me for questioning him about his claim that farmers don't care about
sustainabilty of their ground.
    He had the unmitigated gall to all but accuse me of being racist with
his little tirade and his  "And you know, not much seems to have changed,
including people with attitudes like yours." comment.
    Attitude for what, questioning? How dare someone question his statement,
"The ag community needs to break its monoculturalistic thinking and adopt
sustainability principles.", given that he gave no clue to his backround?
Heck, for all I know he could have been a street artist in in San Fransico
who couldn't tell the differene between wheat and barley.
    I don't think there is a competent farmer out there that doesn't realize
the value of taking care of the land.


      -----Original Message-----
      From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]On Behalf Of Ted Moffett
      Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 12:34 PM
      To: david sarff; Vision2020
      Subject: [Vision2020] Argicultural,Energy Sustainability (Was Moscow's
Growth Policies...)



      Dave et. al.

      I pondered a post to counter what seemed like "personal" attacks
against your suggestions on sustainability, but after reading your response,
why bother?

      What a great post, Dave!

      Now if only we can attain energy sustainability coupled with
environmental sanity, via stopping or slowing development based on a fossil
fuel/CO2 emitting powered model, that will wreck havoc on the biosphere on a
global scale, as non-renewable fossil fuel resources are depleted.  I am
part of the problem with my driving habits, and good jobs and wealth are
wonderful... But the writing is on the wall!

      I am amazed at the growth advocates who don't appear to consider the
frightening impacts of the fact that the USA per capita contributes more
tonnage of CO2 to the atmosphere than any other nation on Earth, while they
advocate that we continue development and expansion based on this
inefficient and non-sustainable fossil fuel powered model of life style,
industry and consumerism.  Efforts are being made for improvements in
efficiency and CO2 neutral energy sources, but the bottom line remains that
absolute levels of CO2 emitted by the US economy continue to increase, as we
glut on a resource that will be rendered scarce for future generations

      Till this reality is addressed aggressively, economic expansion based
on massive CO2 output will only place the extreme costs of climate change
onto the next generation, or sooner, while the lifestyle based on cheap
fossil fuels will be in jeopardy due to fossil fuel depletion, if
sustainable affordable energy alternatives and technologies on a massive
scale are not implemented.

      Millions of people on the planet will pay the price for our fossil
fueled powered wealth and success, mostly in the poorer nations, due to
catastrophic climate change.

      Of course, China and India will soon surpass the US in fossil fuel use
and thus CO2 output... And if the US is not addressing the problem
aggressively, what convincing argument can be made that they should also?

      Ted Moffett, dumping 3 tons of CO2 into the atmosphere every year with
my below average contribution for a US driver.


      On 1/15/07, david sarff <davesway at hotmail.com > wrote:

        Hello Kai,
        Some years ago, during the great terrorism scare of the late 1800's
, when
        Chief Joseph and Looking Glass were on the rampage and the locals
were
        engaged in practicing homeland security. My Great, Great,
Grandparents had
        come up the river earlier because congress told the public that the
property
        of the west was open to them. Not to long after they built along the
river
        the family was brought into Colfax for their protection. They were
very
        frightened about the situation as the US Army tended to there usual
work,
        doing their jobs, representing the country and unfortunately chasing
around
        and killing a bunch of really quite innocent folks, and calling it a
war.
        After the Army got things all nice and secure , setting up some
forts here
        and there. The US citizens and my family continued to go about their
        business and exploit the resources as they were led to believe that
        everything was on the up n up.  And you know, not much seems to have
        changed, including people with attitudes like yours.
        My local family stomping grounds runs up the river from the ocean to
about
        Palouse falls, then up to Sandpoint and back down to the North Fork.
There
        are a couple homesteads underwater and one under PFI. If you haven't
        noticed, the fishing has been real bad for a considerable period of
time and
        the eels are completely gone. The soil has gotten damp enough that
the few
        fish left swim over it.
        Four generations have been in Moscow proper. If you get buried in
any
        cemetery in Latah county, you can thank one of my granddads,
Clarence Jenks,
        for setting up the county districts. He was a Moscow Chamber pres
and
        printer for the Daily Star and Queen city printing,  If you meet,
I'm
        certain you'll get along with him quite well…His better half is
simply
        wonderful.
        He said that the "City with a Smile" slogan was rues. I see that the
signs
        have been removed. Kind of metaphorical, really.

        I grew up in town and got side tracked by my very good high school
ag
        instructor, Kirk Rush. He helped me acquire my first full time job
for
        Moscow Implement, selling parts. That was my first serious infusion
into the
        ag community. After that I went to collage at LCSC. Out of that went
to work
        for State Tractor with Gary Crabtree. Not much real ag stuff going
on there,
        but some( and it gets him in the story). Durring the 80's I had and
auto
        repair shop in town. Some of the customers were farmers as well as
freands.
        They always need some kind of help, particularly at harvest time.
        In the 90's I worked four years at Columbia Tractor.
        I can repair and operate just about anything you can think of and
have
        worked for a handful of farmers in a variety of different
capacities. Over
        the years I've had plenty of experience with the ag community. They
have one
        hell of a hard row to hoe and I have seen it up close and personal.
        My present volunteer activities include native plant regeneration
with the
        Palouse Prairie Foundation.
        With that group I sometimes volunteer work to do preservation work
with the
        local endangered native plant community ( and the Great White Worm).
There
        are farmers that attend that group. We talk about dirt...
        There is a member in the group named Maynard Fosberg who is a
retired soil
        scientist. I'm confident that he has the kind of authority your
looking for.
        As far as my ears and eyes can tell, soil conditions are continuing
to
        decline and if you want a good description of soil health in just
about any
        region of the world, then I'm certain he'd love to bend your ear a
bit, if
        you were to look for him.
        Almost all farms are *Not* operating their land sustainably and its
not
        entirely their fault. The soils are completely addicted to chemicals
and the
        crops to gene pool juggling.
        If you want a good definition and read that reflects my idea of just
what
        constitutes sustainability,  I recommend reading the works of Bill
Mollison.
        Speaking of Coyote stories, the Nez Perce Nation has been here a bit
longer
        than any settlers family you can find.
        I  accept their ideas about how the land (and the rivers) should
sustainably
        treated.
        Maybe will see you at the spring Pow Wow. We can talk about the land
and
        supporting property rights.
        Dave








        >
        >Dave said "The ag community needs to break its monoculturalistic
thinking
        >and adopt sustainability principles."
        >Ummmm, Dave, many of the farms in this area have been in production
and
        >passed down through 3 generations at this point. That's about 100
years of
        >sustainability. There is a saying that farmers have, "Take care of
the
        >ground and it'll take care of you."
        >Please name any other family owned businesses that have been here
that
        >long.
        >And please tell us how much time you've spent on a farm or other ag
        >operation.
        >
        >

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