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<DIV><SPAN class=684541022-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Lol,
touche' Ted "It's only Vision2020"</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=684541022-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Lets
se, my view on fossil/alternative fuel issues.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=684541022-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Welllllllll,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=684541022-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
think there are viable alternatives out there, but I suspect the oil
companies have/will crush any that may pose a threat to their
stranglehold.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=684541022-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Why is
it we can put a man on the moon, land rovers on Mars, send other craft deep into
the sloar system, but we are still using the same type of engines for about.
(Internal combustion, suck and blow type)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=684541022-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Once
you take away the electronic control and fuel delivery systems, the modern
engine is essentially the same as ones found in the old "Tin
Lizzies"</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=684541022-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>A
century of improvement in every sectory of technology, yet only minor changes in
engines......... anybody else see anything wrong with this picture? We made the
leap from horses to lunar landings in less time than that.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Ted Moffett
[mailto:starbliss@gmail.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 16, 2007 2:08
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Kai Eiselein, editor<BR><B>Cc:</B> david sarff;
Vision2020<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Argicultural, Energy
Sustainability (Was Moscow's Growth Policies...)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Kai et. al</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Yikes. It's only Vision2020.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You might comment on the fossil fuel depletion/CO2/climate change
crisis? That elephant in the room most want to ignore?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Anyway, I wrote "what seemed like "personal" attacks" with quotes
around the word "personal" meant to express doubts about whether this indeed
was the case.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I can't speak for Dave, of course, but I did not read his comments as
suggesting you were a racist. I read them as suggesting you
expressed a point of view toward exploitation of resources and sustainability
that forgot the Nez Perce's history, an omission many might make, myself
included, when assuming the conversation is in the context of modern
farming since the "settlement" of the USA by the mostly European
population that came west. Dave's post expressed a view of these issues
in the context of how the land and resources were "managed" by the Nez Perce
before the Europeans "took over." His points about the demise of certain
resources (fish) since the European "occupation" cannot be disputed. The
dams used in part to supply water to irrigate farms along the Snake and
Columbia rivers are indisputably linked to modern farming practices damaging
the fish runs that were once a traditional aspect of the Nez
Perce's use of sustainable resources. These issues continue today with
fights over the spring fish runs being facilitated with runoff allowed to flow
through the dams reducing the amount of water needed for irrigation. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You asked Dave:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN><FONT color=#000000>"Ummmm,
Dave, many of the farms in this area have been in production and passed down
through 3 generations at this point. That's about 100 years of
sustainability. There is a saying that farmers have, "Take care of the ground
and it'll take care of you." </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN><FONT color=#000000>Please
name any other family owned businesses that have been here that
long."</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><SPAN>Consider this question in the
context of the Nez Perce use of their traditional lands for hundreds of
years prior.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><SPAN>Ted
Moffett</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><SPAN>I think you must admit that this statement was rather blatant in
ignoring the Nez Perce </SPAN></P>
<DIV><BR> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 1/16/07, <B class=gmail_sendername>Kai
Eiselein, editor</B> <<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:editor@lataheagle.com" target=_blank>editor@lataheagle.com
</A>> wrote:</SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial size=2>Personal attacks?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial size=2>I asked two questions......
two.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial size=2>I knew nothing about Dave, his ag
background or anything. He went off on me for questioning him about his
claim that farmers don't care about sustainabilty of their ground.</FONT>
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>He had the unmitigated gall to all
but accuse me of being racist with his little tirade and <FONT
face="Times New Roman">his "And you know, not much seems to have
changed, including people with attitudes like yours." <FONT
face=Arial>comment.</FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3>Attitude for what,
questioning? How dare someone question his statement, "The ag community
needs to break its monoculturalistic thinking and adopt sustainability
principles.", given that he gave no clue to his backround? Heck, for
all I know he could have been a street artist in in San Fransico
who couldn't tell the differene between wheat and barley.
</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3>I don't think there is a
competent farmer out there that doesn't realize the value of taking care of
the land. </FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=#000000
size=3></FONT><BR> </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com"
target=_blank>vision2020-bounces@moscow.com </A>[mailto:<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com"
target=_blank>vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</A>]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Ted
Moffett<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 16, 2007 12:34 PM <BR><B>To:</B>
david sarff; Vision2020<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020]
Argicultural,Energy Sustainability (Was Moscow's Growth
Policies...)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dave et. al.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I pondered a post to counter what seemed like "personal" attacks
against your suggestions on sustainability, but after reading your
response, why bother?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What a great post, Dave! </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Now if only we can attain energy sustainability coupled with
environmental sanity, via stopping or slowing development based on a
fossil fuel/CO2 emitting powered model, that will wreck havoc on the
biosphere on a global scale, as non-renewable fossil fuel resources are
depleted. I am part of the problem with my driving habits, and good
jobs and wealth are wonderful... But the writing is on the wall!
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I am amazed at the growth advocates who don't appear to consider the
frightening impacts of the fact that the USA per capita contributes more
tonnage of CO2 to the atmosphere than any other nation on Earth, while
they advocate that we continue development and expansion based on
this inefficient and non-sustainable fossil fuel powered model of life
style, industry and consumerism. Efforts are being made for
improvements in efficiency and CO2 neutral energy sources, but the bottom
line remains that absolute levels of CO2 emitted by the US economy
continue to increase, as we glut on a resource that will be rendered
scarce for future generations </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Till this reality is addressed aggressively, economic expansion based
on massive CO2 output will only place the extreme costs of climate change
onto the next generation, or sooner, while the lifestyle based on cheap
fossil fuels will be in jeopardy due to fossil fuel depletion, if
sustainable affordable energy alternatives and technologies on a
massive scale are not implemented. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Millions of people on the planet will pay the price for our fossil
fueled powered wealth and success, mostly in the poorer nations, due to
catastrophic climate change. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Of course, China and India will soon surpass the US in fossil
fuel use and thus CO2 output... And if the US is not addressing the
problem aggressively, what convincing argument can be made that they
should also?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ted Moffett, dumping 3 tons of CO2 into the atmosphere every year
with my below average contribution for a US driver.<BR><BR> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 1/15/07, <B class=gmail_sendername>david
sarff</B> <<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:davesway@hotmail.com" target=_blank>davesway@hotmail.com
</A>> wrote:</SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><BR>Hello
Kai,<BR>Some years ago, during the great terrorism scare of the late
1800's , when<BR>Chief Joseph and Looking Glass were on the rampage and
the locals were <BR>engaged in practicing homeland security. My Great,
Great, Grandparents had<BR>come up the river earlier because congress
told the public that the property<BR>of the west was open to them. Not
to long after they built along the river <BR>the family was brought into
Colfax for their protection. They were very<BR>frightened about the
situation as the US Army tended to there usual work,<BR>doing their
jobs, representing the country and unfortunately chasing around <BR>and
killing a bunch of really quite innocent folks, and calling it a
war.<BR>After the Army got things all nice and secure , setting up some
forts here<BR>and there. The US citizens and my family continued to go
about their <BR>business and exploit the resources as they were led to
believe that<BR>everything was on the up n up. And you know,
not much seems to have<BR>changed, including people with attitudes like
yours.<BR>My local family stomping grounds runs up the river from the
ocean to about <BR>Palouse falls, then up to Sandpoint and back down to
the North Fork. There<BR>are a couple homesteads underwater and one
under PFI. If you haven't<BR>noticed, the fishing has been real bad for
a considerable period of time and <BR>the eels are completely gone. The
soil has gotten damp enough that the few<BR>fish left swim over
it.<BR>Four generations have been in Moscow proper. If you get buried in
any<BR>cemetery in Latah county, you can thank one of my granddads,
Clarence Jenks, <BR>for setting up the county districts. He was a Moscow
Chamber pres and<BR>printer for the Daily Star and Queen city
printing, If you meet, I'm<BR>certain you'll get along with
him quite well…His better half is simply <BR>wonderful.<BR>He said that
the "City with a Smile" slogan was rues. I see that the signs<BR>have
been removed. Kind of metaphorical, really.<BR><BR>I grew up in town and
got side tracked by my very good high school ag <BR>instructor, Kirk
Rush. He helped me acquire my first full time job for<BR>Moscow
Implement, selling parts. That was my first serious infusion into
the<BR>ag community. After that I went to collage at LCSC. Out of that
went to work <BR>for State Tractor with Gary Crabtree. Not much real ag
stuff going on there,<BR>but some( and it gets him in the story).
Durring the 80's I had and auto<BR>repair shop in town. Some of the
customers were farmers as well as freands. <BR>They always need some
kind of help, particularly at harvest time.<BR>In the 90's I worked four
years at Columbia Tractor.<BR>I can repair and operate just about
anything you can think of and have<BR>worked for a handful of farmers in
a variety of different capacities. Over <BR>the years I've had plenty of
experience with the ag community. They have one<BR>hell of a hard row to
hoe and I have seen it up close and personal.<BR>My present volunteer
activities include native plant regeneration with the <BR>Palouse
Prairie Foundation.<BR>With that group I sometimes volunteer work to do
preservation work with the<BR>local endangered native plant community (
and the Great White Worm). There<BR>are farmers that attend that group.
We talk about dirt... <BR>There is a member in the group named Maynard
Fosberg who is a retired soil<BR>scientist. I'm confident that he has
the kind of authority your looking for.<BR>As far as my ears and eyes
can tell, soil conditions are continuing to <BR>decline and if you want
a good description of soil health in just about any<BR>region of the
world, then I'm certain he'd love to bend your ear a bit, if<BR>you were
to look for him.<BR>Almost all farms are *Not* operating their land
sustainably and its not <BR>entirely their fault. The soils are
completely addicted to chemicals and the<BR>crops to gene pool
juggling.<BR>If you want a good definition and read that reflects my
idea of just what<BR>constitutes sustainability, I recommend
reading the works of Bill Mollison. <BR>Speaking of Coyote stories, the
Nez Perce Nation has been here a bit longer<BR>than any settlers family
you can find.<BR>I accept their ideas about how the land (and
the rivers) should sustainably<BR>treated.<BR>Maybe will see you at the
spring Pow Wow. We can talk about the land and <BR>supporting property
rights.<BR>Dave<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>><BR>>Dave said
"The ag community needs to break its monoculturalistic
thinking<BR>>and adopt sustainability principles."<BR>>Ummmm,
Dave, many of the farms in this area have been in production and
<BR>>passed down through 3 generations at this point. That's about
100 years of<BR>>sustainability. There is a saying that farmers have,
"Take care of the<BR>>ground and it'll take care of you."
<BR>>Please name any other family owned businesses that have been
here that<BR>>long.<BR>>And please tell us how much time you've
spent on a farm or other
ag<BR>>operation.<BR>><BR>> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>