[Vision2020] Argicultural, Energy Sustainability (Was Moscow's Growth Policies...)

[Ted Moffett]

Kai et. al

Yikes.  It's only Vision2020.

You might comment on the fossil fuel depletion/CO2/climate change
crisis?  That elephant in the room most want to ignore?

Anyway, I wrote "what seemed like "personal" attacks" with quotes around the
word "personal" meant to express doubts about whether this indeed was the
case.

I can't speak for Dave, of course, but I did not read his comments as
suggesting you were a racist.  I read them as suggesting you expressed a
point of view toward exploitation of resources and sustainability that
forgot the Nez Perce's history, an omission many might make, myself
included, when assuming the conversation is in the context of modern
farming since the "settlement" of the USA by the mostly European population
that came west.  Dave's post expressed a view of these issues in the context
of how the land and resources were "managed" by the Nez Perce before the
Europeans "took over."  His points about the demise of certain resources
(fish) since the European "occupation" cannot be disputed.  The dams used in
part to supply water to irrigate farms along the Snake and Columbia rivers
are indisputably linked to modern farming practices damaging the fish runs
that were once a traditional aspect of the Nez Perce's use of sustainable
resources.  These issues continue today with fights over the spring fish
runs being facilitated with runoff allowed to flow through the dams reducing
the amount of water needed for irrigation.

You asked Dave:

"Ummmm, Dave, many of the farms in this area have been in production and
passed down through 3 generations at this point. That's about 100 years of
sustainability. There is a saying that farmers have, "Take care of the
ground and it'll take care of you."
Please name any other family owned businesses that have been here that
long."

Consider this question in the context of the Nez Perce use of their
traditional lands for hundreds of years prior.

Ted Moffett




I think you must admit that this statement was rather blatant in ignoring
the Nez Perce


On 1/16/07, Kai Eiselein, editor <editor at lataheagle.com> wrote:
>
>  Personal attacks?
> I asked two questions...... two.
> I knew nothing about Dave, his ag background or anything. He went off on
> me for questioning him about his claim that farmers don't care about
> sustainabilty of their ground.
> He had the unmitigated gall to all but accuse me of being racist with his
> little tirade and his  "And you know, not much seems to have changed,
> including people with attitudes like yours." comment.
> Attitude for what, questioning? How dare someone question his statement,
> "The ag community needs to break its monoculturalistic thinking and adopt
> sustainability principles.", given that he gave no clue to his backround?
> Heck, for all I know he could have been a street artist in in San Fransico
> who couldn't tell the differene between wheat and barley.
> I don't think there is a competent farmer out there that doesn't realize
> the value of taking care of the land.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:
> vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]*On Behalf Of *Ted Moffett
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 16, 2007 12:34 PM
> *To:* david sarff; Vision2020
> *Subject:* [Vision2020] Argicultural,Energy Sustainability (Was Moscow's
> Growth Policies...)
>
>
> Dave et. al.
>
> I pondered a post to counter what seemed like "personal" attacks against
> your suggestions on sustainability, but after reading your response, why
> bother?
>
> What a great post, Dave!
>
> Now if only we can attain energy sustainability coupled with environmental
> sanity, via stopping or slowing development based on a fossil fuel/CO2
> emitting powered model, that will wreck havoc on the biosphere on a global
> scale, as non-renewable fossil fuel resources are depleted.  I am part of
> the problem with my driving habits, and good jobs and wealth are
> wonderful... But the writing is on the wall!
>
> I am amazed at the growth advocates who don't appear to consider the
> frightening impacts of the fact that the USA per capita contributes more
> tonnage of CO2 to the atmosphere than any other nation on Earth, while they
> advocate that we continue development and expansion based on this
> inefficient and non-sustainable fossil fuel powered model of life style,
> industry and consumerism.  Efforts are being made for improvements in
> efficiency and CO2 neutral energy sources, but the bottom line remains that
> absolute levels of CO2 emitted by the US economy continue to increase, as we
> glut on a resource that will be rendered scarce for future generations
>
> Till this reality is addressed aggressively, economic expansion based on
> massive CO2 output will only place the extreme costs of climate change onto
> the next generation, or sooner, while the lifestyle based on cheap fossil
> fuels will be in jeopardy due to fossil fuel depletion, if sustainable
> affordable energy alternatives and technologies on a massive scale are not
> implemented.
>
> Millions of people on the planet will pay the price for our fossil fueled
> powered wealth and success, mostly in the poorer nations, due to
> catastrophic climate change.
>
> Of course, China and India will soon surpass the US in fossil fuel use and
> thus CO2 output... And if the US is not addressing the problem aggressively,
> what convincing argument can be made that they should also?
>
> Ted Moffett, dumping 3 tons of CO2 into the atmosphere every year with my
> below average contribution for a US driver.
>
>
> On 1/15/07, david sarff <davesway at hotmail.com > wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello Kai,
> > Some years ago, during the great terrorism scare of the late 1800's ,
> > when
> > Chief Joseph and Looking Glass were on the rampage and the locals were
> > engaged in practicing homeland security. My Great, Great, Grandparents
> > had
> > come up the river earlier because congress told the public that the
> > property
> > of the west was open to them. Not to long after they built along the
> > river
> > the family was brought into Colfax for their protection. They were very
> > frightened about the situation as the US Army tended to there usual
> > work,
> > doing their jobs, representing the country and unfortunately chasing
> > around
> > and killing a bunch of really quite innocent folks, and calling it a
> > war.
> > After the Army got things all nice and secure , setting up some forts
> > here
> > and there. The US citizens and my family continued to go about their
> > business and exploit the resources as they were led to believe that
> > everything was on the up n up.  And you know, not much seems to have
> > changed, including people with attitudes like yours.
> > My local family stomping grounds runs up the river from the ocean to
> > about
> > Palouse falls, then up to Sandpoint and back down to the North Fork.
> > There
> > are a couple homesteads underwater and one under PFI. If you haven't
> > noticed, the fishing has been real bad for a considerable period of time
> > and
> > the eels are completely gone. The soil has gotten damp enough that the
> > few
> > fish left swim over it.
> > Four generations have been in Moscow proper. If you get buried in any
> > cemetery in Latah county, you can thank one of my granddads, Clarence
> > Jenks,
> > for setting up the county districts. He was a Moscow Chamber pres and
> > printer for the Daily Star and Queen city printing,  If you meet, I'm
> > certain you'll get along with him quite well…His better half is simply
> > wonderful.
> > He said that the "City with a Smile" slogan was rues. I see that the
> > signs
> > have been removed. Kind of metaphorical, really.
> >
> > I grew up in town and got side tracked by my very good high school ag
> > instructor, Kirk Rush. He helped me acquire my first full time job for
> > Moscow Implement, selling parts. That was my first serious infusion into
> > the
> > ag community. After that I went to collage at LCSC. Out of that went to
> > work
> > for State Tractor with Gary Crabtree. Not much real ag stuff going on
> > there,
> > but some( and it gets him in the story). Durring the 80's I had and auto
> > repair shop in town. Some of the customers were farmers as well as
> > freands.
> > They always need some kind of help, particularly at harvest time.
> > In the 90's I worked four years at Columbia Tractor.
> > I can repair and operate just about anything you can think of and have
> > worked for a handful of farmers in a variety of different capacities.
> > Over
> > the years I've had plenty of experience with the ag community. They have
> > one
> > hell of a hard row to hoe and I have seen it up close and personal.
> > My present volunteer activities include native plant regeneration with
> > the
> > Palouse Prairie Foundation.
> > With that group I sometimes volunteer work to do preservation work with
> > the
> > local endangered native plant community ( and the Great White Worm).
> > There
> > are farmers that attend that group. We talk about dirt...
> > There is a member in the group named Maynard Fosberg who is a retired
> > soil
> > scientist. I'm confident that he has the kind of authority your looking
> > for.
> > As far as my ears and eyes can tell, soil conditions are continuing to
> > decline and if you want a good description of soil health in just about
> > any
> > region of the world, then I'm certain he'd love to bend your ear a bit,
> > if
> > you were to look for him.
> > Almost all farms are *Not* operating their land sustainably and its not
> > entirely their fault. The soils are completely addicted to chemicals and
> > the
> > crops to gene pool juggling.
> > If you want a good definition and read that reflects my idea of just
> > what
> > constitutes sustainability,  I recommend reading the works of Bill
> > Mollison.
> > Speaking of Coyote stories, the Nez Perce Nation has been here a bit
> > longer
> > than any settlers family you can find.
> > I  accept their ideas about how the land (and the rivers) should
> > sustainably
> > treated.
> > Maybe will see you at the spring Pow Wow. We can talk about the land and
> >
> > supporting property rights.
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >Dave said "The ag community needs to break its monoculturalistic
> > thinking
> > >and adopt sustainability principles."
> > >Ummmm, Dave, many of the farms in this area have been in production and
> >
> > >passed down through 3 generations at this point. That's about 100 years
> > of
> > >sustainability. There is a saying that farmers have, "Take care of the
> > >ground and it'll take care of you."
> > >Please name any other family owned businesses that have been here that
> > >long.
> > >And please tell us how much time you've spent on a farm or other ag
> > >operation.
> > >
> > >
>
>
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