[Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
J Ford
privatejf32 at hotmail.com
Thu Feb 22 19:00:34 PST 2007
Hey Matt - your forum as much as anyone else's. GO FOR IT!!!
Instead of just suggesting topics, let's see what you feel about them. In
other words, get the discussion going IF that is what you really want.
Here - I'll start you off....
Surveys are not only a waste of money, but my and other people's time and a
huge imposition! For the town to flourish, we need to grow. To grow, we
need smart people who KNOW what they are doing in the City Staff positions
and are not being controlled by outside influences (nope - not going to name
those...out of respect for you, Matt. And the fact that there are MANY
influences at work here.) We can grow and serve EVERYone as long as we work
together. But surveys are just a way of delaying the discussion.
This is how I see the survey system that this City uses: First you have a
survey of the City Staffers; then the City Counsil; then the different City
Committees; then, if you have time, you survey the different major land
owners in the area; and hey, if you really are feeling grandiose, you can
even survey the CBD folks and last but certainly least of all, you survey
the folks in the City itself. BUT, to make sure you have the answers that
really matter, you go back through the first couple of groups, discuss it
until everyone is bald from pulling their hair out over the length of the
process and THEN - mayhap, if you agree with the answers OR are trying to
get elected, you put it up for a vote and hopefully the NEW Council will
make the final decision.
Now, I'd like to see what you feel about this.
J :]
>From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
>To: privatejf32 at hotmail.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:22:22 -0800
>
>J,
>
>There are many topics to discuss so lets go.
>
>Why is it we spend thousand on surveys that amount to nothing? You and the
>list all know we need to conserve water. That we need to have an
>alternative source. That our downtown needs to be upgraded. How we as a
>university based town have much growth potential, instead our city council
>feels we need to get a survey asking citizens if we should. Or better yet
>putting so many restictions that one can't.
>
>How about the fact that many streets in Moscow are unpaived, but yet we
>insist on sidewalk intervention?
>
>How about talking about our local and neighborhood troops abroud?
>
>Maybe how we could wisely spend our money on our schools? Buy new land,
>rebuild russel, etc etc?
>
>Or how our mayor doesn't want to replace the late( God yest his soul) John
>Dickinson, instead would rather wait until his body is found? I might add
>that it is a noble cause however does little for the city.
>
>J I have about ten more if you prefer, but I feel this is a better and also
> different approach, compaired to your monopoly driven CC agenda.
>
>Matt
>
>
>>From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
>>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:03:23 -0800
>>
>>
>>You know what gets me is if there are "so many other topics" that you
>>could talk about - well, then why doncha? Seems to me you are complaining
>>but you're not producing....
>>
>>You have something to talk about - DO IT!
>>
>>Again - action not just talk. Seems to be the theme for today.
>>
>>
>>J :]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
>>>To: starbliss at gmail.com, deco at moscow.com
>>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
>>>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:58:57 -0800
>>>
>>>Ted,
>>>
>>>I would agree that a unmoderated list is the only way to go.
>>>
>>>Debbie is not asking for that, and neither am I. What we need is educated
>>>and thoughtful topics, not agenda driven bias, which has controlled the
>>>blog for some time now. She respectfully asked to take Js' and Waynes'
>>>oponion somewhere else. Along with anything that controlls the blog. They
>>>is so much more we can talk about, instead its an obsession with some.
>>>
>>>I too could talk about topics for hours, such as the Bears dominance for
>>>the next 20 years. How they have more hall of famers and had the best
>>>team ever(85 Bears). That will lead to little though. It would take away
>>>from the potential this forum has. I respectfully decline to do so, along
>>>with trying to limit my posts to 3 times a day.
>>>
>>>Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: "Ted Moffett" <starbliss at gmail.com>
>>>>To: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
>>>>CC: Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
>>>>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:10:59 -0800
>>>>
>>>>Wayne et. al.
>>>>
>>>>I disagree with much of the content on Vision2020, even some of Wayne's
>>>>posts, but I agree with him totally on the value of an unmoderated forum
>>>>such as this; and that for those who don't value discussions about
>>>>religion
>>>>or Christ Church, they can ignore or delete those posts.
>>>>
>>>>I usually do not find ignoring subjects I have no interest in or find
>>>>objectionable a problem when I read or participate on Vision2020.
>>>>
>>>>Debbie's complaints no doubt express the views of many regarding the
>>>>dominance of Christ Church issues that sometimes can be found on this
>>>>list
>>>>serve. But many others think that these discussions are important
>>>>Moscow
>>>>issues, as Wayne argues, which should be an important focus of
>>>>discussion
>>>>for very good reasons.
>>>>
>>>>Why should Debbie's slant on the proper subject content for Vision2020
>>>>control the list? Some people have trouble with freedom of speech, it
>>>>appears.
>>>>
>>>>Ted Moffett
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On 2/21/07, Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Debbie writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>"I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN anti-christ
>>>>>church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever LISTSERV and leave this one to
>>>>>its
>>>>>origins of discussing *Moscow* issues."
>>>>>
>>>>>Some people on this forum see some of the actions of Christ Church as a
>>>>>Moscow issues: zoning, sexual abuse, spousal abuse, racism, sexism,
>>>>>homophobia, theocracy, alleged evading of capital gains taxes,
>>>>>misleading or
>>>>>lying at public hearings, effects of on recruitment both academic and
>>>>>athletic at the UI, organizational dishonesty, and cultism. Some
>>>>>people on
>>>>>this forum also see it as a county-wide forum, not just the exclusive
>>>>>domain of certain Moscow users.
>>>>>
>>>>>Some older people on this forum, whose opinion apparently really
>>>>>doesn't
>>>>>count, still remember learning about *"Eternal vigilance is the price
>>>>>of
>>>>>liberty."* Some old people on the forum see those that ignore this bit
>>>>>of
>>>>>Jeffersonian wisdom as enablers. For these ignorers/enablers, if the
>>>>>Sitler
>>>>>and Wight sexual predator cases, the ways they were handled, and their
>>>>>nuances and ramifications for the community did not act as a wake-up
>>>>>call,
>>>>>then probably nothing will.
>>>>>
>>>>>Some old people have not only read about, but have observed firsthand
>>>>>the
>>>>>effects of cultism on individuals and communities in other places,
>>>>>hence are
>>>>>more concerned. Unlike Misters Decker, Becker, et al, some people
>>>>>believe
>>>>>that the some of the outré belief-inspired actions of the cult have
>>>>>damaged
>>>>>and continue to damage the community. Some are concerned about the
>>>>>very
>>>>>active recruitment to the community of others by Christ Church who
>>>>>share
>>>>>their outré beliefs and would perpetuate the damaging actions by Christ
>>>>>Church which are promulgated by such beliefs.
>>>>>
>>>>>For example, a letter to the *Daily News* detailing the cruel and
>>>>>harmful
>>>>>effects on their child by Douglas Wilson's direct and indirect actions
>>>>>with
>>>>>respect to gays is a chilling reminder of the effects of homophobia.
>>>>>[I can
>>>>>repost this letter should some of you be unfamiliar with it.] Some
>>>>>people
>>>>>find these kinds of discriminatory/hate driven actions disturbing, wish
>>>>>to
>>>>>live in a community where this kind of discrimination is greatly
>>>>>diminished,
>>>>>and therefore wish to promote a community discussion on this and
>>>>>related
>>>>>issues. The same can said be for the issues raised by the recent
>>>>>reposting
>>>>>of the Logos School's complete original announcement of the banning of
>>>>>women
>>>>>from serving on the school's board of directors. The same can be said
>>>>>of
>>>>>Wilson's delusional views on antebellum slavery.
>>>>>
>>>>>Wilson has a complete right to express and to argue for his views,
>>>>>however
>>>>>badly they reflect on the community in the outside world. What would
>>>>>reflect even worse for Moscow, in my opinion, is if such views were not
>>>>>rigorously and openly opposed.
>>>>>
>>>>>Some people do not think it proper to discuss others' religious
>>>>>beliefs. The fact is that strongly held religious beliefs prompt
>>>>>actions
>>>>>which have community impact, sometimes these impacts are toxic and
>>>>>harmful
>>>>>to the general community health, welfare, and pursuit of happiness. To
>>>>>these people who think religious discussions are not proper, I urge you
>>>>>to
>>>>>read about the motives of the first European colonists in our country,
>>>>>and
>>>>>whose European experiences gave birth to our Constitution.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Debbie further writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>"Your Anti-Christ Church rhetoric and hate has suffocated an otherwise
>>>>>helpful, informative, interesting, lively forum."
>>>>>
>>>>>Perhaps I am too old to see it otherwise, but Vision 2020 is still a
>>>>>helpful, informative, interesting, lively forum. There have been many
>>>>>local
>>>>>issues discussed. I know for a fact that some of the opinions offered
>>>>>here
>>>>>have influenced officials of both city and county government as well as
>>>>>some
>>>>>other organizations.
>>>>>
>>>>>There is no doubt a lot of writing about Christ Church and related
>>>>>issues
>>>>>on V 2020 for reasons given above. There are also a lot of writings
>>>>>about
>>>>>things that are not purely city issues; some of these issues are
>>>>>national
>>>>>and global in size, but still in the long run the subjects of these
>>>>>issues
>>>>>will affect Moscow.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Repeating what Debbie wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>"I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN anti-christ
>>>>>church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever LISTSERV and leave this one to
>>>>>its
>>>>>origins of discussing Moscow issues."
>>>>>
>>>>>I hope that even critics of those that write about Christ Church will
>>>>>find
>>>>>the phrase "your OWN" offensive. Is there something that we do not
>>>>>know?
>>>>>Are there some individuals who "own" Vision 2020, and therefore have
>>>>>the
>>>>>right to tell those of us who are not among the "owners" what the
>>>>>"real"
>>>>>Moscow issues are, and consequently what to write about?
>>>>>
>>>>>As has been mentioned many times before, once an unmoderated public
>>>>>forum
>>>>>has been opened, only the very naive would expect it to be confined
>>>>>topic-wise or rhetoric-wise. Public discourse bears fruit, in part,
>>>>>because
>>>>>of this wide diversity. As a member of a number of forums, I find that
>>>>>Vision 2020 is superior in at least two ways: It has very little
>>>>>problems
>>>>>with spam, and it has encouraged a great diversity of opinions on
>>>>>issues and
>>>>>of styles of communication, *some* of which have promoted constructive
>>>>>change in the community.
>>>>>
>>>>>With respect to the diversity of topics and rhetoric, some people are
>>>>>not
>>>>>comfortable with this degree of freedom of expression. For such
>>>>>people, the
>>>>>one or two seconds it takes to use the delete key remains a
>>>>>reasonable option and does not deter the rest of us from reading (or
>>>>>not)
>>>>>what others freely choose to post. For others that are exasperated by
>>>>>or
>>>>>otherwise unable to handle the fruits of freedom of expression, there
>>>>>are
>>>>>ways of blocking a particular poster. I have only blocked one person.
>>>>>It
>>>>>is not that I wish to exclude his opinions, but I am tired of getting
>>>>>his
>>>>>offline poison pen notes. Blocking him provides an option for now to
>>>>>pursuing criminal complaints and/or civil actions.
>>>>>
>>>>>If it is permitted, I'll tell you what bothers me about certain posts:
>>>>>Some posters do not believe that it necessary to support with
>>>>>information
>>>>>and argument the opinions they express. Of course they are free to do
>>>>>this,
>>>>>but it does not reflect well on themselves nor the positions they
>>>>>espouse.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Wayne A. Fox
>>>>>1009 Karen Lane
>>>>>PO Box 9421
>>>>>Moscow, ID 83843
>>>>>
>>>>>(208) 882-7975
>>>>>waf at moscow.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Debbie Gray" <graylex at yahoo.com>
>>>>>To: "kerry becker" <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com>
>>>>>Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:11 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Exactly. Christ Church isn't alone it its
>>>>> > interpretations of the bible. I grew up in a
>>>>> > fundamentalist bible-thumping born-again household and
>>>>> > heard this same stuff. I understand that people oppose
>>>>> > these ideas and find them harmful. I don't understand
>>>>> > the hate focused on one group. I don't agree with most
>>>>> > of the things they teach but I don't agree with the
>>>>> > catholics (also anti-gay, anti-abortion, etc etc), the
>>>>> > LDS Church (also wanting to keep women in their
>>>>> > 'traditional role'); the Lutherans, the Methodists and
>>>>> > any other flavor of "christian" belief. Where is the
>>>>> > outcry that women can't be Elders in the LDS Church?
>>>>> > Where's our female pope? Look at those Catholic
>>>>> > priests molesting children left and right!
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN
>>>>> > anti-christ church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever
>>>>> > LISTSERV and leave this one to its origins of
>>>>> > discussing Moscow issues. Your Anti-Christ Church
>>>>> > rhetoric and hate has suffocated an otherwise helpful,
>>>>> > infornative, interesting, lively forum. Does anyone
>>>>> > remember PRE-Tom Hansen/Jackie Woolf, etc? I do!!!
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Debbie Gray
>>>>> > p.s. Tom, I am at home on my home computer (purchased
>>>>> > with wages from the UI), do you want my home address?
>>>>> > Phone #? I hope you like my IP address... i like how
>>>>> > the numbers make such a random pattern. Do i need to
>>>>> > give a permission slip from my spouse or kids that I
>>>>> > am not misusing my personal time?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --- kerry becker <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ---------------------------------
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The irony is that this stuff happens in many churches.
>>>>> > You know what kind of heyday we could have if we had
>>>>> > a mole like J Ford in the mormon church? Think about
>>>>> > it. Now there's some good stuff. Maybe we could
>>>>> > start an "Outing Churches in Moscow" blog? : )
>>>>> >
>>>>> > But seriously, there really ISNT a fine line between
>>>>> > "dialogue" and "obsession." It's clear as day which
>>>>> > is which and I believe that's what most are trying to
>>>>> > eliminate in these postings.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Reminds me of a quote;
>>>>> >
>>>>> > "Great minds talk about great ideas; average minds
>>>>> > talk about average ideas; small minds talk about other
>>>>> > people.--Anonymous
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>>____________________________________________________________________________________
>>>>> > Get your own web address.
>>>>> > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
>>>>> > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
>>>>> >
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>>>>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
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>>>>> > http://www.fsr.net
>>>>> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>> > =======================================================
>>>>> >
>>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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