[Vision2020] [Bulk] Re: Italy sides with terrorists

[Paul Rumelhart]

Tony,

I would say that kidnapping a private citizen on foreign soil is an act 
of aggression, and shows hostile intent to the state involved.  At the 
very least, it shows that we don't respect that country's sovereignty.  
In this case it wasn't invasion because it wasn't carried out by our 
troops, only our government operatives.  If harm against a private 
citizen on foreign soil is not a form of aggression worthy of fighting 
back against, then why have a military at all?

What I would like you to understand is that there is a huge gulf between 
the idea of an aggressive, guilty, terrorist with blood on his hands and 
someone who is only suspected of being involved with a terrorist 
organization.  The difference is that the suspected terrorist might 
actually be innocent.  Unfortunately, the only way they find that out is 
after they have moved him to an illegal torture camp on foreign soil and 
after they have tortured him enough to feel assured of his innocence.  
Then what do they do?  They can't let him go, or he'll blab about their 
illegal torture camp.  Isn't there something wrong with this picture?

The main difference, I think, between our viewpoints is that I think 
that we should be responding to this crisis in such a way that we don't 
tread on the civil liberties of our own citizens, or of those of other 
countries.  Our rights are more important than the ease with which we 
can stop terrorism.  How far do you take that idea, anyway?  If it's 
suspected that there is a lone terrorist in Moscow, should the 
government feel free to bomb us back to the stone age just to be sure 
that one suspected terrorist is dead?  It's a natural progression from 
where we were a few years ago to that sort of scenario.

If we had not attacked Iraq, then I would say that we should be working 
with foreign governments to track down and arrest terrorists with the 
support of the military if needed.  That doesn't mean that we should be 
invading foreign countries on our own initiative.  We should be working 
with the UN to eradicate terrorists on foreign soil.  Our intelligence 
agencies should be working with those of other countries to track them down.

Paul

Tony wrote:

> Well Andreas, your question presumes that a nation harboring an 
> assumed terrorist could be characterized as an ally.  We do tend to 
> use such terms somewhat loosely as far as our relationships with Italy 
> and Germany.
>  
> And Paul, I would question the use of the term "invasion" to describe 
> a presence with NO HOSTILE INTENT toward the state it entered.  A 
> presence which has as its sole intent, the apprehension and bringing 
> to justice of a lone individual.  If another state had highly 
> compelling evidence that a citizen or visitor in America were guilty 
> of horrendous crimes, and we refused to subject them to prosecution, 
> further refusing to extradite, it would ill behoove us to complain 
> were that state to come after their tormenter themselves.
>  
> Gentleman, try to understand that you cannot defeat a sociopathic 
> beast of an enemy by employing the tactics of a Sunday School teacher.
>  
> Later on,  -T
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Paul Rumelhart <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
>     *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>     *Sent:* Sunday, February 18, 2007 3:48 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Italy sides with terrorists
>
>     Andreas Schou wrote:
>
>>On 2/18/07, Tony <tonytime at clearwire.net> wrote:
>>  
>>
>>>Ellen, I think that our government has not only the right, but the duty to
>>>kidnap those who it strongly suspects are guilty of terrorism when said
>>>suspects are being harbored and thus enabled, by a foreign power.
>>>    
>>>
>>
>>We have the obligation to violate the laws of our allies?
>>
>>-- ACS
>>  
>>
>
>     And wouldn't the foreign power in question have the right to call
>     the presence of foreign troops on it's soil in the midst of a
>     kidnapping an invasion?
>
>     We can't be prideful of our sovereignty if we don't respect that
>     right in other nation states.
>
>     Paul
>
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